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.NET: Do you Deploy a Managed App?

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  • Anonymous
    September 21, 2008
    Peter Marcu has posted a survey on his blog that I wanted to link to here in order to try to help him

  • Anonymous
    September 21, 2008
    -> Yes.  I started off with dummy VS2005 installer projects, and then I would delete the .msi I would get, and replace it with the real .msi generated by WiX.  Today, I use Bootstrapper Manifest Generator. -> No.  Why waste their time when I can include it on the CD. -> Recent official releases are about 300MB up to one whole CD.  Unofficial versions go as small as 20MB. ->CD if it fits, DVD otherwise. ->Kinda big, but oh well.  I'm trying to migrate from 2.0 to 3.5 because at least I will have one less thing (J# runtime, I use it for the .ZIP capabilities) to deploy. ->Never heard of it. ->I like that the .NET folks are going towards integration.  One executable does it all. ->There's still too many pieces, if you look at Visual Studio as a whole (think C++ runtime, etc.)  I also don't like that you need to install VS Std. to be able to build the bootstrapper. ->I'm not sure if this counts, since it's more of a vcrt issue...but this was a really big one ~> http://forums.microsoft.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1190875&SiteID=1

  • Anonymous
    September 21, 2008
    -> Of course.  VS2008 installer project is okey. -> Yes, for small applications that are distributed by web, but mostly use msi package. -> From 5MB to 410MB. ->Web or CD. ->Well it's big, i wish we had some version of .NET that is aimed only for a customer. ->Never heard of it. ->Well i like that it has one executable, it easy to use on windows machine, but i wish that Microsoft started helping Mono-project and support .NET on Linux.(.NET must be everywhere, like JAVA) ->Mmm... a process that start compiling assemblies after .NET install. Sometimes it takes to long to compile all assemblies(it waits while computer is idle and user doesn't use it).Do you often leave your Notebook idle?

  • Anonymous
    September 21, 2008
    Un questionario sulla distribuzione delle applicazioni .NET

  • Anonymous
    September 21, 2008
    -> Yes, clickonce bootstrapper for the prerequistes. -> No, .Net framework gets installed with the prerequisites. -> My two applications are 20 MB large each. -> Web, with ClickOnce. -> It is big and at version 3.5 SP1 there are situations when a reboot is requested by .Net Framework installation. A nightmare scenario for the deployment of a smart client -> Yes, we will test Client Profile soon. -> The fact it is a single executable that the user can, under critical conditions and if Clickonce bootstrapper fails, directly install. -> The recent and non recent problems regarding ClickOnce (certificate expiration, missing pieces in VS 2008 SP1, reboot in few scenarios) -> We used ClickOnce for a long time and experienced several problems, minor and major. It would be really great to discuss it, will you be at PDC'08?

  • Anonymous
    September 22, 2008
    My colleague Peter Marcu , who is leading the development effort on the new deployment experience for

  • Anonymous
    September 22, 2008

  1. Do you have a bootstrapper/chainer that preinstalls .NET? If so, which one (VSI, InstallShield, Wise, ClickOnce, custom)? We used the ClickOnce bootstrapper due to time constraints. However, we found it fairly limiting in terms of user experience - it's fairly "geeky" in terms of messages that are shown to the end user. I'd rather not bootstrap at all - MSI should allow us to install the framework with our app. If it doesn't the setup technologies have failed us. I don't want to support additional custom apps, wrappers, transactions, etc for a small app.
  2. Do you block and point your user to the location to download and install .NET? No. We don't trust the download process. Urls may change and it adds a lot of complexity and things that can go wrong.
  3. How large is your application? 300 MB.
  4. How is your product deployed (Web download, CD, DVD, USB)? 80mm mini-CD, web download, and MSP patches.
  5. What do you think about the size of the .NET package? It took a LOT of convincing to deploy .NET 3.0 on our CDs. Management was NOT happy when they heard the majority of our disk space was going to the .NET Framework. They said things like "Why is this needed? Why are we using this technology? What was Microsoft thinking?", etc. They were very painful meetings for the development team.
  6. Do you know about the small package for .NET 3.5 that will download only what your user need? If so, do you use it? Yes. It won't help us, since we don't want a dependency on .NET 3.5. The .net 2 and 3 versions are more widely deployed. We need to support existing installations via patches, which means we're locked into .net 3 at maximum forever (unless we force users to download 3.5 during the patch process!) We had a lot of problems migrating to Visual Studio 2005 because Web Application Projects were removed in the original release. Management is reluctant to migrate to 2008 yet because they are worried it will cause more problems.
  7. What do you like about the .NET Framework Redist? There's nothing I like, but I don't hate it all. Most of it is transparent and I don't think about it - which is the way it should be.
  8. What do you dislike about the .NET Framework Redist? I can't install it as part of my MSI's installation. It requires bootstrappers and other "kludges" to work around this limitation. It's massive. Installation time takes way too long - many users think our installation is broken and reboot their computers halfway through the .net install! That's even with the progress bar showing!
  9. Do you have any specific problems you can tell me about that you have had in deploying the .NET Framework? I hate bootstrappers, I hate bootstrappers, I hate bootstrappers. I can't repeat this enough. I HATE BOOTSTRAPPERS. It's a kludge that Microsoft has forced onto us because merge modules were a failure. A setup technology should not require ANOTHER setup technology to work! I don't care if transactions, external UIs, and other things are added - it only increases the code surface and makes the installer the most complex piece of code in the entire application. MSI needs to do this internally without kludges or external workarounds. Dependencies should not be a massive pain! They must be transparent to both the user and the installation developer! </rant> :-)

  • Anonymous
    September 22, 2008
    Also, I really wish I could deploy ONLY the .NET dll's that my application depends on. Let's say I can get this with a merge module -- that would be awesome. As part of the merge module's installation it would set a flag to tell Auto-Update to get the rest of the framework.

  • Anonymous
    September 22, 2008

  1. No. We currently install .NET manually on each workstation.
  2. Our intranet install page links to the .NET redistributable but is mostly useless as users will never have admin privileges on their workstations.
  3. Approximately 200mb consisting of a suite of applications.
  4. Our product is deployed via ClickOnce from an internal IIS server at each of our 13 production sites.
  5. As long as the entire .NET framework for all platforms continues to fit on a CD, I'm happy.
  6. I'm aware of the smaller .NET package but within an intranet scenario size is the least concern.
  7. I like that the redist includes x86 and x64 versions and all prerequisites.
  8. I dislike the scenario for group policy based deployment of the .NET framework.
  9. As per Q8, extracting the .NET 3.5 redist and configuring multiple .MSIs in the right order in group policy at 13 sites is a pain. Can the redist package just be a single .MSI ready for group policy deployment?

  • Anonymous
    September 22, 2008
    q) Do you have a bootstrapper/chainer that preinstalls .NET? a) Yes and No q) If so, which one (VSI, InstallShield, Wise, ClickOnce, custom)? a) VSI, InstallShield and manually q) Do you block and point your user to the location to download and install .NET? a) No. It's an IT pre-installation. q) How large is your application? a) back-end: 13 Mb, front-end: 55 Mb q) How is your product deployed (Web download, CD, DVD, USB)? a) CD, USB q) What do you think about the size of the .NET package? a) Arghhhhhhhhhhh q) Do you know about the small package for .NET 3.5 that will download only what your user need? If so, do you use it? a) Yes, I know, but my application is .Net 2.0 q) Do you have any specific problems you can tell me about that you have had in deploying the .NET Framework? a) No problem occurred in last 5 years

  • Anonymous
    September 23, 2008

  1. ClickOnce
  2. Don't understand. 3.Small, currently.
  3. Web download (ClickOnce).
  4. Fine
  5. Yes, Not sure, it's not that clear with ClickOnce.
  6. Small setup, download the rest that needed.
  7. Can be smaller.
  8. My application is built according to CAL guide - meaning I have an executable project which DO NOT have reference to other modules (DLLs) instead they are dynamically loaded. The ClickOnce deploy tool inside Visual Studio does not support this kind of deployment style so I have to use 3rd-party tools like ManifestManagerUtlity to alter the .manifest file after the deployment is created. I will be very happy if you can create a ClickOnceDeploymentProject like WebDeploymentProject in which I could point to all the modules I would like to have in my ClickOnce deployment and create a single package in one step. Ido.
  • Anonymous
    September 23, 2008
    The comment has been removed
  • Anonymous
    September 23, 2008
    The comment has been removed
  • Anonymous
    September 24, 2008
  1. We have an InstallShield Bootstrapper to install the framework
  2. We don't block, redist is on our disk
  3. 35GB - mostly data but the custom install software to manage that data is written in .NET
  4. multiple dual layer dvds
  5. Size of the .NET package is neglible to us
  6. Didn't know about the small package for .NET 3.5, currently we use only 2.0.
  7. I like the fact that it installs .NET!
  8. I wish the .NET redist would include gacutil.exe (and perhaps other SDK utils).  This would help internally to debug QA test machines that have gone wrong, although I'll admit never needing this util on a remote customers machine.

  • Anonymous
    September 26, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    September 26, 2008
    this survey might be a LOT better if it was done with a survey form on a web site. I can't even see the questions down here.... I have a bunch of apps, 3 click Once desktop apps. 2 Smart CLient cab file packages about 6-7 web apps plus web services that connect the desktop and smart clients to the backends. and soon I expect to have more going on. ClickOnce is sweet most of the time, we do a web page for internal users to grab the app via https downloads. I wish I had a smart device clickonce ! updating Handhelds running CE is a real PIA I have about 50 in use with our apps. CLickOnce desktops -- about 60-70 some systems have been running since Oct 2005 check our web site if you want more detailed feedback.

  • Anonymous
    September 26, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    September 26, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    September 29, 2008
    Do you have a bootstrapper/chainer that preinstalls .NET? If so, which one (VSI, InstallShield, Wise, ClickOnce, custom)? > No Do you block and point your user to the location to download and install .NET? > Link on my website to MS download site How large is your application? > about 15 MB How is your product deployed (Web download, CD, DVD, USB)? > Web What do you think about the size of the .NET package? > Gets larger and larger Do you know about the small package for .NET 3.5 that will download only what your user need? If so, do you use it? > Yes, I know about it, but I don't use it What do you like about the .NET Framework Redist? > It does what it need to do What do you dislike about the .NET Framework Redist? > Bad installer experience for end users. The GUI of the installer is not standard conform and looks very ugly, every other MS installer looks nicer. The almost square form is ugly. Please redesign the GUI of the installer! Do you have any specific problems you can tell me about that you have had in deploying the .NET Framework? > No problems, so far

  • Anonymous
    October 03, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    October 05, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    October 20, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    October 24, 2008
    Do you have a bootstrapper/chainer that preinstalls .NET? If so, which one (VSI, InstallShield, Wise, ClickOnce, custom)? Using WIX as installer so using the .Net Bootstrapper as explained in the WIX documentation. How large is your application? Smaller than the .Net framework How is your product deployed (Web download, CD, DVD, USB)? User will be able to download from the web but would also be making a CD available at some point. What do you think about the size of the .NET package? Is a bit big but the smaller redist of .Net 3.5 migh make a diffirence, will try that at a stage. Do you know about the small package for .NET 3.5 that will download only what your user need? If so, do you use it? Know about it, but haven't started to use it as I haven't migrated to .Net 3.5 yet. What do you like about the .NET Framework Redist? Easy to inlcude into my setup package. Do you have any specific problems you can tell me about that you have had in deploying the .NET Framework? Haven't encountered any real problems yet.

  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2008
    The comment has been removed

  • Anonymous
    December 18, 2008
    I'm a network admin who deploys many apps, some now requiring .NET 3.5. We roll out everything with group policy which mainly works fine, but with .NET 3.5 we're finding that although it appears to deploy ok, deploying it this way can cause applications to break.  The fix so far is to manually install .NET 3.5 locally.  There's no visible difference in the control panel, exactly the same applications are installed after doing it manually, but programs now run. I'm still troubleshooting this to try to find the cause, but my comment for Microsoft would be to pick a software deployment technology and stick to it.  MSI deployment via group policy is superb in corporate environments.  WSUS is a good alternative, but it's still a pain having two separate ways to roll out software. Having some programs deploy one way, others another, and still more software that you can't deploy with either is just a nightmare. You also need to get things like DirectX fixed since that is an absolute nightmare to roll out in a corporate environment (and is now required by software like AutoCAD). .NET is a great idea, but it's got to be easy to install, both for end users and for corporates.  Site wide installation cannot be an afterthought like it appears to be with .NET 3.5.

  • Anonymous
    December 28, 2008
    We abandoned the idea of migrating our application to framework 3.5 (temporarily) because in various scenarios the vs.net bootstrapper takes a huge amount of time to install... there is no screen feedback and user thinks that the machine has hanged! We tried with client profile but it it did not work.... because most of our clients already has .net 2.0 installed, it installs the full package!

  • Anonymous
    March 06, 2009

  1. No.
  2. No, it varies too much (needs a short and stable url).
  3. About 3MB.
  4. Web download.
  5. I think the size is fine.
  6. Yes.  No.
  7. It's all together and it's point-and-click.
  8. Nothing.
  9. No.
  • Anonymous
    May 05, 2009
  1. Do you have a bootstrapper/chainer that preinstalls .NET? Yes, Wise script
  2. Do you block and point your user to the location to download and install .NET? No, this would not be an acceptable solution.
  3. How large is your application? 600MB including all runtimes and applications
  4. How is your product deployed (Web download, CD, DVD, USB)? CD
  5. What do you think about the size of the .NET package? Quite big
  6. Do you know about the small package for .NET 3.5 that will download only what your user need? If so, do you use it? We have to assume that our customers do not always have Internet access.
  7. What do you like about the .NET Framework Redist? Quite simple installation
  8. What do you dislike about the .NET Framework Redist? There is a delay when installing if there is no Internet connection available (test was done on an Intranet). The reboot is also annoying, but it is required before installing SQL Express 2008.
  • Anonymous
    May 19, 2009
  1. Not yet.  We work very hard to get pre-requisites in place ahead of our applications specifically to avoid this.
  2. No - The installation should be complete and never require user interventtion. We apply updates overnight.
  3. We have approx 7 apps from 4 - 80 mb. 2 are services, 1 is IIS, the rest are desktop apps.
  4. Our deployment runs from server, CD, DVD or USB.  We built it to work all three ways.  Most common is from server.
  5. It's OK but we apply it before the app to save time.  
  6. Not in our plan. We put the big install on the source server and install through our WAN rather than calling across the internet.
  7. NA
  8. In our world, it works.
  9. NA 10 Nope
  • Anonymous
    July 15, 2009
    Hate the large size of the .Net35 SP1 - I have hundreds of remote sites that have to download and install this.  I only need it for x86 XP..why bundle everything into one executable.  Talk about putting your eggs into one basket!