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More on FSX-SP2(DX10) delay factors

  • Artykuł

I will try one more time to explain why SP2 is taking longer, since there are persistent doubts as to Aces intentions in general and my truthfulness in particular.

While the features may have been final, they have not been tested. What do you mean, they haven't been tested - you said there are no new fixes right? Yes, but read on.

Since SP2 as a web download is a separate product we have treated it as such. SP2 is in a separate source tree. That is really the only way to be sure about what you are developing and building. Trying to build 2 products out of 1 tree is inviting disaster.

Because it is in a separate source tree, it requires a separate build process. Any separate build requires separate testing by definition. That is how the "form" of SP2, in that it is a separate product in a separate tree with a separate build process, dictates future actions. Because it is a separate product and treated as such, the bits are most decidely not "just sitting on the shelf". The bits need to be rebuilt and retested.

But that is not sufficient to ship them, that is only part of the story. On to the rest of what has to happen before we can ship.

Once all Acceleration languages were finalized ( and it took a couple weeks to do that after Acceleration RTM for all additional languages ), we could then turn our focus onto SP2. The single setup developer we have was busy with the extra language setups for Acceleration and could only move to SP2 once all the languages for Acceleration had shipped.

One he had done that, he then had to then write the setup for SP2. It did not exist before he finished with Acceleration. Without a setup, we have nothing to ship.

That still is not sufficient.

We still have to validate the contents of SP2. To do this, we then had to go back thru the bug database and checkin mails and validate all fixes that should be in both trees were. And we found a couple that, in the heat of trying to finalize Acceleration, were indeed not checked in both trees.

These then had to be integrated. Once that process was complete, we then could kick off "all-in" SP2 builds.

And start the localization process for SP2. Since we have a shared Loc team in geographically dispersed areas ( Dublin, Tokyo, Taiwan, Korea ) we direct that process but do not own it and have our hands tied as to how fast things progress.

Once the SP2 builds got to a certain stability, we could then post an SP2 beta to validate:
1) setup,
2) the required fixes are indeed in, and
3) that free flight multiplayer ( modulo shared cockpit ) between SP2 and Acceleration is indeed compatible.

These are all important, required engineering steps. This testing is critical testing and cannot be skipped.

So reaching SP2 beta is an important milestone and one which justified my blogging about it to inform the community as to progress.

From this much more detailed discussion, perhaps skeptics can be convinced. Even if not, let me remind folks that back-seat engineering is just as useful as back-seat driving.

Comments

  • Anonymous
    November 21, 2007
    hello, You mention SP2 multiplayer compatibility with FSX Acceleration. Will SP2 users be able to have full MP support (including shared cockpit features) with Acceleration users and non-SP2/Acceleration users? Thanks!

  • Anonymous
    November 21, 2007
    Shared Cockpit is under investigation, it may not work due to the new engine sim vars ( supercharger, ADI, engine damage, helo 3-turbine support ) which has changed what needs to be synchronized between the app. No promises. Other than that, yes. Note, having any "cross-version" compatibility is tough and most multiplayer games require the same patch level. So getting SP2 and Acceleration to MP together at all is an accomplishment.

  • Anonymous
    November 22, 2007
    You schuld never have started working on  "Acceleration" before finishing your work on SP2. The DX10 effects were used for advertisment the time when FSX wasn´t even shipped. It was advertismant for Vista...it´s a shame that there are the other companyies (Farcry) that bring us the innovation of DX10. But as always, for Microsoftit had priority to focus on the product that brings money first (Acceleration).

  • Anonymous
    November 22, 2007
    DataX: I think you are forgetting SP1 and the work the studio put into that and when factoring how we are treating the FSX customer that must be included. Remember that the DX10/SP2 teams and Acceleration development teams are mostly separate; its really setup, localization, and testing that are causing the delay. Yes, we are a business but I dont believe when we are on track to deliver 2 free upgrades this year in addition to the great value in the expansion pack that we have anything to apologize for.

  • Anonymous
    November 22, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 22, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 22, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 23, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 23, 2007
    hello, Guys, if you don't like Microsoft's way of doing things, which I don't, then why buy the software? It's been done before like this, it's nothing new. I bought the software because I really couldn't care less which order things are done in. Don't like it, OK, remember the lesson, don't buy from MS again, it's simple. You don't like the product, you don't buy it. Anyway, Phil Taylor, is there a time frame for the release of SP2? Thanks again!

  • Anonymous
    November 23, 2007
    Marty, i'm a consumer too and i wish DX10 would not only be a "preview", but now it is like it is and Phil has explained everything and that not only since yesterday, so i don't feel betrayed. We knew that FSX was a DX9 game and which DX9 game was easily patched to DX10? If you look at "Company of Heroes" we should be very lucky^^ For me it's only important, if i can use and enjoy FSX + Xpack and thats the case! Where is your problem with DX10 preview, if you don't use any add-ons? DX10 preview works fine for me, if i don't use pseudo FSX add-ons. Ok, i have texture flickering on some airports but if i'm flying i easily forget that :) And there is also a fully working DX9 mode which alone is the money worth you paid for FSX.

  • Anonymous
    November 23, 2007
    I may be behind in all this but I thought acceleration had the sp2 (dx10) included. So what Im asking is sp2 is still in the "works?"

  • Anonymous
    November 23, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 24, 2007
    I thought Acceleration only has DX10 preview.   Here's a new review of Acceleration from YouGamers, quoting Phil on several points: http://www.yougamers.com/reviews/14505_flight_simulator_x_acceleration/ marty

  • Anonymous
    November 24, 2007
    Hi Marty, good link, sums up what many of us feel I would say, espeiclally in relation to Direct X 10 What I would like to hear from Aces is when will Flight Sim have full Direct X 10 support. Is that going to be FS11, I hope not as that will be in 12 months time I would guess, based on release schedule of FS titles over the years. Surley Aces can spend some time and maybe even with SP2 to do more with Direct X 10. I upgraded to a system and Video card on the so called promotion that Both FSX and Vista would support Direct X 10, I can't see it yet. Although I've not played any other Direct X 10 games on my system, actually would not know of any. Maybe someone could tell me if there are any. Cheers Phil M

  • Anonymous
    November 24, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 24, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 25, 2007
    Hello, I totally agree, and should think most of the flightsim community as well, most people have spent alot of money upgrading for the release of FSX,DX10 driven software WAY BACK IN JANUARY! I have the 8800GTX card which cost me £450 which has sat dorment for almost a year,  will probably be obsolete soon, I"m not interested in ACCELERATION just wanted a MICROSOFT ADVERTISED DX10 FSX from the start and carry on flying on VATSIM via FSCOPILOT. I appreciate this forums efforts and the hard work etc, but is"nt F11 expected in a years time?

  • Anonymous
    November 25, 2007
    Hi, Even after the SP2, that came with AEPack the problem of double views is not solved. .fsg file removed, driver update Nvidia, on and off AA etc. Only problems with the B737 and A320. Not B747. First there were no problems, only after SP1 and SP2. Can you help us? Regards Loek The Netherlands

  • Anonymous
    November 25, 2007
    For Cartman... "I brought with me actually a sneak preview of the next generation of Microsoft Flight Simulator. It's a really immersive environment that's being led by Windows Vista graphics and the next generation of DirectX."

  • Aaron Woodman as introduced by B. Gates 2006 International Consumer Electronics Show (CES) Las Vegas, Nevada Jan 4, 2006 What exactly were we to think Cartman?

  • Anonymous
    November 25, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
    @Te_Vigo That DX9L will be really cool ;) When did the first Geforce8 cards arrive, when did the first really usable GF8 drivers arrive, when did the first ATI DX10 cards arrive and Vista is and was perfect... Come on, ACES isn't responsible for all what MS does and MS isn't responsible for Nvidia or ATI and so on.. So please be realistic and don't blame the wrong people. I don't know any other DX10 Game, which shows a real benefit from DX10, like FSX now does and please consider the time that they had and the whole compatibility thing - sorry, FSXA in DX10 works on my system (except the flickering on some airports) and i don't know what goes wrong on your system. I hope that there will be someday a "hotfix" which will make all perfect for FSX, but i don't think, that ACES will get motivation for that, if they read here or in forums only negative things about their work and if people tell, that they are disabling DX10 anyway because of their "FS8/9toFSX" add-ons...

  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
    I hope this DX10 stuff will be done soon. You mentioned there are 2 free upgrades, but consider that we already paid for these! DX10 was a promised feature and a service pack is just necessary if something was not correct before. I think providing the acceleration pack before the DX10 part is cheeky. So there should be an end to this tragedy very soon, we can't talk about a happy end here. It doesn't matter who is responsible for the latest delay, if you have been providing your i8n crew earlier with the needed data the SP would be shipped now. @Cartman: And BTW, what did you all expect from DX10? Ehm, I expect a lot of performance improvements as the  publisher told me.

  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
    @olitsch You paid for a flight simulator and that's, what you have got. The SPs didn't only correct errors, they brought also many new features (e.g. multicore usage), so FSXA/FSXSP2 is now much more than you paid for FSX RTM (as advertised). You wrote: "It doesn't matter who is responsible for the latest delay, if you have been providing your i8n crew earlier with the needed data the SP would be shipped now." Who are you to judge this? And Please show me where "the publisher" has told you that you can expect "a lot of performance improvements". As a FSXA owner i can tell you, that DX10 brings exactly what Phil Taylor has told us in his blog. In DX10 i can nearly max all sliders, in DX9 i have to reduce the water and shadow settings and disable bloom. In every other game you can't really see DX10 and you will have a big performance hit. It's important to use the best driver for your System (newest WHQL or newest Beta, you have to test which driver works better for you and set AA and AF to application controlled), don't use tools like nhancer and better fly in fullscreen mode. And don't forget to set the right display settings after you restart FSX, after the change from DX9 to DX10^^

  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
    Very nice to read all the posts. But an anwer is more suitable. regards loek

  • Anonymous
    November 26, 2007
    Cartman, There's nothing wrong with my system... avrge 30FPS with bloom on and traffic off, except of course the shadow problem that most have now DX9L (Dx9Ex) is a DX9/ DX10 hybrid if that helps

  • Anonymous
    November 29, 2007
    I have strange problem with WHITE SCREEN (~2 seconds) when I change views and go to 2D Panel and stop mouse over some botton (e.g: HDG in B738). The same problem when I start/hide IVaP. I use NVidia 8800GTS(320Mb) with last stable driver, E6750, Asus P5WDH-Deluxe, 2Gb RAM, Dx9 (last stable version) and FSX-SP1. Regards, Renato

  • Anonymous
    November 30, 2007
    I think it's quite funny that they release DX 10 for Acc. Pack but no kind of release for non Acc Pack.  Just my $.02

  • Anonymous
    December 02, 2007
    Hey! Please release SP2 before Christmas. I have Acceleration but my friends don't and so we can't play multiplayer! That's really really annoying. SP2 will solve this problem, right? Thanks

  • Anonymous
    December 02, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    December 02, 2007
    I suggest you all take a look at CRYSIS.. it makes FSX look like a cartoon. It truely demonstates what can be done with DX10. I have played it for the past couple of weeks while waiting for various flightsim releases! Absolute seamless performace and you have see it to believe it, you feel nausia,whilst playing it"s that realistic, it does not matter how intensive the game gets, it does not effect performance......

  • Anonymous
    December 02, 2007
    Call me a bit thick , but I have installed the Acceleration pack, does this mean the whole game is now DX10 functional, or is it just the missions that came with the pack..(preview) am I now waiting for the complete patch (sp2) to make the whole game "come alive" via full DX10 functionality.   I read all these posts and still it seems vage.. it seems all a bit of a carry-on to me...

  • Anonymous
    December 03, 2007
    @olitsch Please buy Crysis, because they tell you, that they use DX10 perfect and multi-cores and 64bit. The funny thing is, you can enable the same graphics quality for Crysis without DX10 and without a 64bit OS/CPU on WinXP32. Better don't trust advertisement. Only FSX is different, because you can really see the improvements by DX10 and that with the same or even with better FPS like with DX9, so they aren't totally wrong with their advertisement. Phil has explained everything here and you will get exactly, what he has written. I can't understand why complaining people like you are trying to save money with the SP2, because there is no other genuine FSX add-on on the market, which offers so much like the XPack does. I'm happy with the priorities :)

  • Anonymous
    December 03, 2007
    Umm, Cartman, you're criticizing Crysis because you can play it without DX10?  What kind of hollow argument is that?  Of course you can play it without DX10, but should you have DX10/Vista, then you get full DX10.  And you get DX10 without having to buy an add-on pack. YOu also get DX10 with Call of Juarez and World in Conflict.  And neither of those require an add-on pack. Geez Cartman, no offense, seriously, but you're sounding like a flack for MS/ACES.  

  • Anonymous
    December 03, 2007
    @mtoohill Thanks for the compliment, but please be honest and don't try to turn my words around. I think MS wouldn't like it to read what i wrote about Crysis and i don't write on someone's behalf, i'm only sick of the hype about Crysis. I don't criticize Crysis because it can be played without DX10 lol My english is bad, but i think you should be able to understand what i meant. I criticize that there is no real benefit of DX10 in Crysis - and they had more time than ACES. Call of Juarez was a DX9 game and you need also a update (like SP2 for FSX) to get the DX10 mode and i'm sure that those people who liked Call of Jaurez would have bought also an expansion pack :)

  • Anonymous
    December 03, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    December 03, 2007
    Marty, if MS had released FSX later... ;) You are ignoring the fact of the lack of available DX10 cards and drivers at the release of FSX. And do the other DX10 games suffer from backwards compatibility? If you want DX10 in FSX now, buy the XPack. It's only your decision. You think it is clever to save money and don't buy the XPack, ok, then wait, but please don't ignore the facts and the reasons for the delay of SP2. You can play your fantastic DX10 games, until SP2 will be available for you :)

  • Anonymous
    December 04, 2007
    Dec 04 2007 Still no DX10.  I am not blaming P Taylor.  But who else do we ask.  At the very least M$ and Dollar Bill should IMHO release an explaination, after all we all need some throne reading.... Again thanks to P Taylor and his efforts.  But M$ is really starting to nerve me after over a decade of LOYAL support.  If they need help let the community know, I'm sure htere's droves of simmers willing to lend a hand where they can.  Happy Holidays to all.

  • Anonymous
    December 05, 2007
    All: The only commitment we have made wrt SP2 is "fall 07" and "before Christmas" so we have a few weeks left. The DX10 in Acceleration is the same as the DX10 that will be in SP2 and works in both missions and freeflight.

  • Anonymous
    December 09, 2007
    Phil, just ran across your blog --- thanks very much for providing this information source. Can you tell me if there will be an updated version of the SDK to go with Service Pack 2, and please please tell me that it will include a Gamespy ID variable. I am working on a online mapping program for one of the major FSX Multiplayer servers and I have not been able to get the Gamespy ID using the SDK.  I know that some other server developers (FS-MP.COM) have gotten access to the user id, but I assume they are going out of the SDK (and FSUIPC for that matter) to get it. Thanks Evan Smith v-evsmit@microsoft.com

  • Anonymous
    December 10, 2007
    "Yes, we are a business but I dont believe when we are on track to deliver 2 free upgrades this year in addition to the great value in the expansion pack that we have anything to apologize for." Phil, I admire and appreciate all you are doing in liaising with us.  It's pretty much unprecendented as far as I know. Trouble is it creates EXPECTATIONS when the detail gets too much detail.  And now you have been forced, probably in desparation, to make the above statement. I'm sorry Phil but, of course Microsoft needs to apologise.  They have to stop using their USERS as PAYING Beta Testers.  The pitty is, they have made you or, you have chosen to be the "bunny".   If you don't know what that means come out to OZ and 'get the drift'. Please EVERYBODY, back-off, and lets get a nice FS10.  SP1 served to convince me to DELETE FS2004 from my hard drive. My point is that the drama in between SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.  Since when should a consumer be apologising for what happened with the FSX release. Regrettably, I got a 'rumble' form a certain Sim Expo that FS10 is dead .... lets get on with FS11 ???

  • Anonymous
    December 13, 2007
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  • Anonymous
    December 23, 2007
    Hi, I have 2 installations of fsx on 2 separate computers (I kept it running on the old one and started with the new one). Here is my experience: Computer 1 (old) - Pentium-4 3.0GHz 2GB Ram, Nvidia 6800 512MB Ram. Running Vista Ultimate, FSX+SP1+Acceleration. All drivers are up-to-date. All windows updates installed. As for FSX - it is running very well, off course - no DX10 as per older video card. Computer 2 (new monster) - Intel-Quad Q6600, 2GB Ram, Nvidia 880GTS 640MB Ram. Running Vista Ultimate, FSX+SP1+SP2. All drivers are up-to-date. All windows updates installed. As for FSX - it is running very well in DX10 preview mode - but only in some areas. Flying over europe, hungary, austria, vienna and so is excelent, no crashes. Flying over my own photo-real scenery of the dead-sea (http://www.nici.net/fsx) is super with framerate of over 100 now (around 50 without SP2). But flying over other regions of Israel, where I use some older fs2004 sceneries, crash fsx after few minutes, sometimes seconds. I use FSX with max settings. There was no problem in this area with FSX+SP1. Only DX10 made the crash. So, if I compare the 2 computers and installations, I think that the problem is with the DX10 preview. I use latest Nvidia drivers. Maybe you should talk with Nvidia, so that they will setup a PC with FSX and see themself what is wrong?