An update on C# Edit and Continue
There has been a lot of discussion, both here and on Andy's blog about C# E&C. Some folks really want it badly. So, I figure you deserve an update on its status.
At the last PDC, we got a lot of strong feedback along the lines of “We understand why you selected Refactoring over E&C, and we think you made the right choice, but we really want E&C anyway.”
Here's the strongest statement I can make: We're committed to getting C# Edit and Continue into the hands of our users as soon as we can, without compromising all the other commitments we've made.
For example, the development and release of Longhorn and Yukon are both tied to the progress of VS Whidbey. We don't want VS, LH, or SQL to slip, right?
E&C has tight dependencies on the CLR team. The CLR is such a critical component that we have to be very careful with what kinds of requests we make on them.
E&C is a complex feature. It will take a lot of dev work + testing, spanning several feature teams. We'll have to carefully coordinate to make this happen. The teams involved are going to have to make a very significant commitment of resources, from the best people.
There is some attention on C# E&C at the highest levels - my boss's boss's boss's boss's boss is interested. If he makes a decision about E&C, then we'll carry it out - whatever the timeline, scope, etc.
When customers ask for something so strongly, we'd be irresponsible not to respond. We're taking your feedback very seriously, and doing deep analysis to decide on the best course of action.
So what does this mean? Well, it's hard to say. We're working on finishing up the first Beta of VS Whidbey, which certainly won't include C# E&C. I hope it won't take any longer than the release after Whidbey, but that's possible, too.
Anyway, we're definitely looking at this closely, and it definitely will happen some time.
Comments
Anonymous
May 17, 2004
Is E&C in scope such a feature that it would not be reasonable to upgrade it on the VS2005 on a service pack? Technically I find it hard to believe it would increase the service pack size much, but the marketing dep. may think such "big" feature would warrant a VS2006 for example ..Anonymous
May 17, 2004
Traditionally Service Packs have been limited to just critical bug fixes including security issues.
We want to make sure that every user will pick up every service pack, which means they need to be comfortable with the risks of picking it up. Suppose you're an airline builder or NASA and we offer an SP of VS. Will you take it?Anonymous
May 17, 2004
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May 17, 2004
This sound like a great productivity boost (and C# users will love it!)Anonymous
May 17, 2004
Ditto! We're talking 30 to 60 minutes a day per programmer on the large project that I'm working on.
That's ALOT OF CASH SAVED.
You want people to upgrade and pay money for Whidbey? This is the surest way I know how.Anonymous
May 17, 2004
From what I understand VB.NET.2005 will have E&C? One would think that C# and VB.NET share a lot of architecture (with regards to the CLR f. ex.) and therefore it should be easier to add C&S to C# when VB.NET already has it?
If we get E&C in C# I'll clean my room every day and be in bed by 10 o'clock and only eat candy on Saturdays and be really nice to my little brother and always finish my dinner and...
>SAnonymous
May 17, 2004
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May 17, 2004
Jay, as sort of an "eat crow" on my part, refactoring is indeed very, very cool! :-)Anonymous
May 17, 2004
I think that it was wrong to prefer refactoring over E&C. I agree that refactoring is often more useful, but the fact that there are at least 3 third-party refactoring products out there shows that it is possible to do outside of Microsoft. However, as your post indicates, E&C is not something that a third party could implement, since it requires tampering with CLR, etc... So, now we only get just one more refactoring tool (possibly not even the best one), and absolutely no way to get E&C for C# for 2-4 more years. And even the refactoring tool won't be updated, won't have new features added, so sooner or later I would switch to another tool that offers more refactorings.
Somebody from Microsoft mentioned that one of the reasons they have choosen refactoring over E&C is that for Java IDEs, the built-in refactoring tools are very highly praised, while there is not much enthusiasm about E&C. Well, since Java had E&C since cca. 1997-1998, I can see how Java ppl got used to it... And we will be lucky if we get E&C for C# 10 years after Java has had it.Anonymous
May 17, 2004
Java has E&C? Is that true? Which environment? I've always used Microsoft tools, and never thought E&C was available anywhere else. I may give Java a serious look if E&C is available on that side of the fence. I got hooked on E&C in VB, and I can't stand that its gone missing.Anonymous
May 18, 2004
E&C wouldn't be nearly a problem if the VS debugger was faster at doing things. VS2003 starts up slow (and hangs a lot during startup for me), and takes a long time to be "ready" after an exception is thrown.
On the plus side, VS2005 simply flies at this and it's so fast I don't notice any slowdowns at all when the debugger is started and an exception thrown.Anonymous
May 18, 2004
VBandi: your point is definitely one we've considered, and one I should have mentioned in my post. We're the only ones that can do C# E&C, but not the only ones that can do refactoring. That fact is motivation to build it.Anonymous
May 18, 2004
<i>
Java has E&C? Is that true? Which environment? I've always used Microsoft tools, and never thought E&C was available anywhere else. I may give Java a serious look if E&C is available on that side of the fence. I got hooked on E&C in VB, and I can't stand that its gone missing.
</I>
E&C has been available in many, many languages outside the C family. I am a Smalltalker, and this is nothing new to us, every Smalltalk environment has had that for quite a while.Anonymous
May 25, 2004
I suspect that the clamour for E&C in C# may have been a relatively recent phenomenon, more recent than the point at which the decision to focus on refactoring was taken.
Why? AFAICT, a lot of VB developers are switching to C# and they're used to E&C. As .Net gains market share, the number of voices is naturally increasing. In fact, one reason for switching may well have been the absence on E&C in VB.Net... Certainly that's been a major factor in my own case.Anonymous
June 13, 2004
Could you explain why it's so difficult to have edit & continue in C# if you have it in Vb.NET. What are the internal mechanics that make it different ?Anonymous
June 13, 2004
The work in the CLR and Debugger applies to all E&C. The language-specific work is very significant though - the rules to understand what an edit in a given language means. Things like Anonymous Methods makes the C# E&C story a bit more complicated, too.Anonymous
June 21, 2004
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June 21, 2004
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June 24, 2004
Bill: can't you edit your C# while you're debugging? I thought I made this work when I was on the debugger team.Anonymous
June 24, 2004
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June 29, 2004
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June 29, 2004
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June 29, 2004
Edit: I didn't mean for the last part of that to come off sounding like a threat. :-)
What I was trying to ask was:
"Which would you prefer, maintaining parity with VB, or including the features you care about?" :-)Anonymous
June 30, 2004
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July 02, 2004
Well as much as I'd really like to see EnC as soon as possible, refactoring will be a benefit.
And with EnC in the VB camp, at least you'll be able to finally edit the files at runtime in VB projects too ;-)Anonymous
July 15, 2004
It's all about time:
1. Three minutes are lost every time I have to make a code change and have to rebuild and restart.
2. More minutes are lost when I get bored waiting for the restart and go off to do something else.
E&C would save me 30 minutes or more every day. Refactoring might save me 30 minutes every month, if that. Besides I can use a third-party tool for refactoring.Anonymous
July 16, 2004
I think, you (VC# team) must have worked hard to do refactoring; you must have spent a lot of "investment" in it. If you then change your mind to add E&C feature in Whidbey, just make sure you have done refactoring as best as possible or you may be trapped in situation where nothing best has been done in both area :). I believe that there is so much more to do, to improve the refactoring, to make it more than just like a third-party refactoring tool. I need it, the same way I need E&C as my second priority, for now at least.
By the way, I completely don't understand why the implementation of E&C should be done in CLR too. Is this by design (the architecture)? If it's, then I don't think it's an inefficient one.Anonymous
July 16, 2004
Edit:
... If it's, then I don't think it's an inefficient one.
Should be:
... If it's, then I don't think it's an efficient one.
Sorry ...Anonymous
August 01, 2004
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July 22, 2006
My start with VS 2005 has rather been a bit sluggish. I didn&#8217;t really work much with the Community...Anonymous
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