W3C SVG Working Group Update for January 2010
In this post, I want to share some examples of the progress going on in the SVG Working Group. Microsoft recently joined the SVG Working Group, and other members (Mozilla, Apple and Opera among others) welcomed us warmly. I'm hopeful about the ways that SVG (both its current direction and future potential) could make the web better. We want the spec to be clear, consistent, and predictable for developers. We’re working out ambiguities such as “Pointer events and clip-paths”, “CSS Selectors <use> and as well as inconsistencies with stroked-dasharray” and “<use> and its interaction with the DOM and rendering” so that web developers can write SVG once and know that it will be interoperable across browsers.
I have to admit I was a little hesitant at first to get guidance and clarity on a dozen or so items we found to be ambiguous (see public SVG WG discussion threads), however the positive response has been overwhelming. Of course we are not the only members raising these issues, but we are happy to be a part of the process. The future of SVG is bright.
Additionally, Microsoft looks forward to hosting the next SVG Working Group face-to-face meeting in Brussels this May.
A special thanks to those on the Working Group for their warm welcome and shared goals of creating a specification that will promote standards based interoperable graphics for the web.
Patrick Dengler
Senior Program Manager
Internet Explorer Team
Comments
Anonymous
January 01, 2003
@sooooo : Please stop being stupid. Why do you think Microsoft has joined the SVG working group? Just for fun? @hmmm : I've just tried your link. It freezes also IE8 on Windows XP SP3.Anonymous
January 01, 2003
@L re: "over-deliver" hahahaha I've never laughed so hard - you're obviously not talking about the IE team... their motto is: "promise-nada, fail-to-fix, remove-features and then claim-to-have-delivered" mottoAnonymous
January 01, 2003
IE 8 really is great and i must say there are some more developments we can expect from Microsoft.Anonymous
January 01, 2003
@nitro: lol, you don't know when to quit, do you?Anonymous
January 01, 2003
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January 01, 2003
@John A. Bilicki III - I've been to your site and although you keep up with technology in the browser your site is so 1989 looking that it isn't funny. I'm not sure what work outside your homepage you do but this doesn't serve you well as a portfolio site. "Welcome to Version 2.8 Preview IV, the twenty eighth version of JAB Creations, the home page" - yeah, no thanks. Sorry dude. As for IE. I don't use it now and unless IE9 does "rock" I doubt anyone will switch back.Anonymous
January 01, 2003
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January 01, 2003
Thanks for these articles, I enjoyed them!Anonymous
January 01, 2003
@Gord If you the lack insight that others have then it's not my problem but if you're going to grief keep in mind when it comes to you and I; I'm the one who has in the past and will in the future continue to be able to demonstrate to great length what I am capable of while at the same time nothing came up for "gord" on Bing or Google that I could associate a real person with. IE9 is going to rock and I for one am glad that it is already creating a clear distinction between those with legitimate concerns such as standards and mere internet trolls.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
Please stop being vague. Is SVG going to be in IE9 or not?!Anonymous
February 01, 2010
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February 01, 2010
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February 01, 2010
@hmmmm Am using Win 7 x64 and IE8 and not getting any lockup with that link. Its open in another tab right now and is scrollable and its links are clickable. I'd suggest you have plugin issues rather than it being a generic IE 8 problem.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
SVG Support , Canvas Support and addEventHandler or UPRISING......Anonymous
February 01, 2010
@Steve Roussey MS Word uses OMML for math. That is a new math xml markup format that can be mixed with other office (layout) xml markup unlike MathML (and SVG) which cannot be mixed. MS Office only contains indirect MathML support. The OMML used by MS Office can be transformed into MathML using XLS Transformations (XLST). The layout markup that was mixed in is then lost.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
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February 01, 2010
Great stuff! I'm particular pleased that you're concentrating on SVG use cases for building graphically rich web apps. Really looking forward to what IE9, and other browsers, deliver in this area. Keep up the good work Patrick!Anonymous
February 01, 2010
Guys i think Canvas is also the future, make your decisions wisely so don't left behind.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
You just know the other members couldn't hold in their snickering.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
I can confirm @hmmm's problem. I am using Internet Explorer 8 on Windows Vista x64, and it freezes. I have even tried it using No Add-ons mode found in the System Tools folder.Anonymous
February 01, 2010
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February 02, 2010
Every canvas/svg use i've ever seen is CPU intensive garbage. Whatever it takes to make that change, do that. Or maybe we just shouldn't be using them. I don't want illustrator like functionality gobbling up cycles in my browser. Keep it simple.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
Thank you for sharing your workgroup experiences. Do you have some public schedule regarding IE SVG support? Can't wait to see some SVG code working in IE.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
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February 02, 2010
@LenardG: From the tea leaves I've read, I think the new version of IE will come out with each version of Windows (every three years) with one interim version, putting them at around every 18 months. Just how many version of how many browsers do you want to support, anyhow? At least with Firefox/Safari/Chrome you can demand the newest version of each from your users since those users likely went and installed it. But with Chrome getting bundled on machines, etc., that assumption/requirement may have to get changed. That said, I agree that it should be faster while IE is so far behind and is in catchup mode. Faster would be better here. Two releases between Win7 and Win8 would be in order. @hAl: Thank you for the reference to OMML. My only experience with MathML is making Firebug work with it in Firebug 1.5.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
Yeah, I hate it when things use my CPU! I prefer when it sits idle, looking pretty and shiny in the case.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
@Steven Roussey relasing two versions would only slow down devlopment it takes time for quilty assurnce etc and if they relased 2 versions that quick not much would be improvedAnonymous
February 02, 2010
@gabe: Yes and no... it really depends on what happens to be ready and when. If, for example, the GPU and JIT work was ready now, but the SVG and other stuff aren't, then testing might be improved by not having to test too many changes all at once. Moot point however, as I don't see once a year happening, though they have done it before... History: 1995 - IE 1, IE 2 1996 - IE 3 1997 - IE 4 1998 - IE 4.5 1999 - IE 5 2000 - IE 5.5 2001 - IE 6 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 - IE 7 2007 2008 2009 - IE 8 Kudus not just to MS for engaging the SVG community, but to the SVG community for engaging MS in meaningful ways (rather than just a lot of rants like on the comments of this blog).Anonymous
February 02, 2010
If they are discussing ambiguous items in the specs, it probably means that they have started working on an implementation. (Remember the start of the work on CSS 2.1 for IE 8? They were discussing ambiguous items and churning out test cases.) On the other hand, this is pure speculation, there is no mention of plans for SVG support in IE. This probably means that the work is not done yet, so they are not allowed to discuss it publicly. (The "under-promise and over-deliver" motto.) Well, this looks good.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
@L It says what is says, and only MS know if that "probably" means anything more/less.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
Whoa! Slow down, first of all the TinySVG subset has to be implemented, there shouldn't be that many ambiguities there.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
Meeting in Brussels, going over to the EU then for a talk?Anonymous
February 02, 2010
@LenardG: No. Huuuge updates were always more successful, see for example Vista… (SCNR).Anonymous
February 02, 2010
@Steven Roussey: I have been working with and developing enterprise application and I do know that for many enterprises there are policies in place that prevent browser updates. They are too afraid to upgrade, because all the web applications would need to be tested and checked so nothing breaks. Many also rely on IE. But I don't think this should be something to block the development and release of new versions, especially because - as you also pointed out - IE needs to catch up with other browsers. The Chrome update model suits me - it just updates itself when there is something new. I do realize that might not suit everybody, of course :) But it might have prevented such things as IE6 still being majorly present. Just ask our Web Designers opinion of that :) While I also understand the reasons behind connecting IE versions with OS releases I still think it badly affects new features not getting out fast enough to the existing user base. @John Sausage: Well with Vista came IE7, and after IE6, it was about time to give something new to IE! No wonder it was popular when it added some features to IE that were greatly missed. But adding useful and good features one at a time could also be greeted with excitement.Anonymous
February 02, 2010
Hi everyone, I'm also pleased to see evidence from the IE team regarding will to involve in the SVG community (joining the SVG WG and increasing activity in its mailing list being clear proof). :-) I agree with Steve [1] that its not only the IE team but also the community which must be involved in the process; the initial feedback seems nice, and I hope to see further progress on both. ;-) Disclosing a schedule on the availability of an SVG implementation within the IE roadmap would be great, but not a requisite (i.e., if Microsoft/IE team wants to make a surprise to the world, that's fine also!). I just recall the past in obscuring this sort of information, giving the impression that standards compliance is being stalled, reason why I'm highlighting this roadmap thing (but I'm convinced you already are aware of that, in the scope of CSS2/3). ;-) Cheers, Helder [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/02/01/w3c-svg-working-group-update-for-january-2010.aspx#9957208Anonymous
February 03, 2010
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February 03, 2010
Well, it is good news to the web vector community!!! :-)))Anonymous
February 03, 2010
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February 03, 2010
@nitro - Glad to see that you had success with VML in IE. However the problem is that it only works in IE and it is a legacy technology. Web Technology these days must not be proprietary and must work in all browsers. HTML5, SVG, Canvas, etc. are all open technologies with specs that can be adhered to. If I build (and I have) an application that uses SVG or Canvas it works across multiple browsers... Firefox, Chrome, Safari, & Opera. Only IE is behind with these technologies and it is hurting IE as a development platform. Today (2010) if I was asked to build an application in VML or VBScript or make use of ActiveX calls or proprietary JScript, or only work in IE I would refuse point blank. More importantly the best development and debugging tools are only available for Chrome, Firefox etc. I would hate to have to use inferior development/debug tools to build my application when there are so many better tools available. Luckily IE6 is on the way out. Existing apps support it, but new ones will not. The faster IE can catch up to modern browsers like Firefox and Chrome, the faster the Web and all Web related technologies can flourish. steveAnonymous
February 03, 2010
@nitro: why reinvent the wheel? Because even MS deprecated VML in 1999. @JAB3: IE8 still doesn't support application/xml in Strict mode by default. However, you can force it through X-UA-Compatible.Anonymous
February 04, 2010
Great to hear you're adding SVG....finally...after how many years? What about the rest of the HTML5 specs?Anonymous
February 04, 2010
@Mike: When you make mistakes like that, you make it obvious that you don't understand your own question. Troll elsewhere please.Anonymous
February 04, 2010
@steve: Canvas and HTML5 are not w3 specs, they are drafts. VML is not a w3 spec either, but a submission: http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VMLAnonymous
February 04, 2010
Quoting John A. Bilicki III: »This decade is going to seriously rock for everyone. :-)« You mean the following one?Anonymous
February 04, 2010
@Mike, SVG has its own specs, the SVG specs is not part of HTML5 specs.Anonymous
February 04, 2010
@John A Bliecki III>>>I'm pretty sure we might see application/xhtml+xml support in IE9 and after getting application/xml to work in IE8 in standards mode and honestly>>> Have I missed something... application/xml and IE8...? I know the old declare an xsl stylesheet trick as text/xsl was discovered about 2003 (it's documented, for instance, at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/xhtml-faq#ie) and was shown to work at the time with IE 5, IE 5.5 and IE 6. It even works when the xsl-stylesheet is declared in the html as application/xml, but to my knowledge it doesn't work if the MIME type for the xsl stylesheet is set to application/xml (set using AddType in an appropriate .htaccess or in the httpd.conf). It is true that IE checks for well-formedness errors, but it then proceeds to handle the served document further as html (there are dozens of ways that this is visible). I'm not sure what use this particular trick is at all, and it certainly doesn't allow xhtml to be served to IE with its correct application/xhtml+xml MIME type. It almost seems, to be brutally honest, as a sort of sick joke. However, you mention IE8 specifically, so perhaps there has been some development that I am not aware of, in which case I would be very happy to hear more... I agree with you, btw, that xhtml support in IE is long overdue. Regards.Anonymous
February 05, 2010
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February 05, 2010
@Steven Roussey - quite true, HTML5 and Canvas are still in draft mode... but that didn't stop browsers working on supporting them. Sure some of the details need to be worked out... but a "date" element as implemented by Opera is pretty much on par with what was expected. Ditto for the Canvas stuff that works just fine in Firefox,Safari,Chrome and Opera... since they all followed the "draft" specs. I'm not to worried about whether the specs are in draft, or finalized... its the commitment to implement them within a reasonable timeframe that is the issue. I was developing in SVG 8 years ago... have bought printed books on how to do it... but support in IE just isn't there. There are times when I feel that IE is not just behind the curve... more that IE isn't even on the curve yet. I'd like to see a post that commits to "trying" to support SVG in IE9. So far it has all be very wishy washy non-commitment which doesn't make me confident in IE/MSFT at all.Anonymous
February 05, 2010
@John A. Bilicki III - "IE9 is going to rock".. thats a pretty bold statement seeing that most of us have not seen anything concrete about IE9 other that it is supposed to support CSS rounded corners and reasonable speed JavaScript. Granted those 2 things are great - but hardly earth shattering since all the other browsers have had both for years.Anonymous
February 05, 2010
@John Sausage This decade if you know what you're doing, maybe the next decade if you don't...maybe. @steve You don't actually think I only read the blog do you? Different people, different perspectives. Sometimes you will bump in to people who don't know some things you do and sometimes you're going to bump in to someone who knows somethings that you don't. You can visit my site and mess with the functionality...not my latest and greatest (2.9 in March, only a lucky few can see my nightlies) but I bring a lot to the table as far as being able to show I know what I'm talking about. I don't speak for Microsoft in any way though rest assured the excitement a lot of people will have reasonably soon is the excitement I already have now.Anonymous
February 05, 2010
Wow this is interesting! Is it also available in spanish?Anonymous
February 06, 2010
@Cursus Spaans: No, SVG support will not be available in the Spanish IE versions. :o)Anonymous
February 06, 2010
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February 06, 2010
Fabulous! This is great news. Next step HTML5 and CSS Effects!Anonymous
February 07, 2010
Useful compatibility layers:Cross-browser VML implementation in Javascript: http://raphaeljs.com/
Implementation of Canvas HTML5 command-based drawing for IE: http://code.google.com/p/explorercanvas/
Anonymous
February 07, 2010
If the Saints can win the SuperBowl then surely IE9 can support SVG!Anonymous
February 08, 2010
LenardG is on the money!... =D IE needs to have the option to update it self... @ IE team... if you had problems with auto updates in the past then that is probably an OS thing too?... My Mac updates it self no problem and I have had both mac and windows for over 10 years... Or when my mac updates or prompts me to update it is not super annoying like other.... for some reason mircosoft, firefox, and adobe update / security prompts / alerts... I find EXTREMELY annoying and aggravating... The mac on prompts don't bother me at all and I actually like them... Maybe you should do lots of usability and design research on an IE auto updater... I hope this helps.Anonymous
February 09, 2010
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February 09, 2010
@Steve: IE will never update itself. There's Windowsupdate and it works for all programs by MS. The only thing missing there is the lack of updates for other software. But I agree that there is a need for updates and that there should be a security warning if you haven't updated your browser and your av-prog. By the way: I'm very excited about the beta of IE9.Anonymous
February 09, 2010
IE 8 doesn't seem to get along with W3C SVG very well ;-)Anonymous
February 09, 2010
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February 09, 2010
firefox all the way id never go back to internet explorer id do without internet before using itAnonymous
February 09, 2010
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February 09, 2010
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February 09, 2010
Paul is correct in noting that the resolutions in the CONNECT database are from IE8, and do not reflect IE9 plans (one way or another) at this time.Anonymous
February 09, 2010
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February 10, 2010
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February 10, 2010
W3C: Why did they choose SVG ??? VML was quite al(l)ready and infinitely better than SVG! http://www.svg-vml.net/ Impressive! 15 years has been lost...Anonymous
February 11, 2010
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February 11, 2010
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February 11, 2010
Say what you want @Observer but when my clients suggest they want IE6 support we kindly inform them that an 8 year old browser is out of date and doesn't provide the rich experience our software was designed to offer. We support IE7 and up or any of the better browsers. We haven't lost a customer yet - and most are quite happy when they get a better browser (IE8, Firefox or Chrome typically) and thank us for pushing them/their IT dept. to upgrade. I did my last webapp code checkin for an IE6 bug in March 2009 and on March 31st we dropped support for IE6. It was the BEST day of my development career thus far!Anonymous
February 11, 2010
It seams that "Standard" is a supreme word for many "regular" people. But W3C is not always on the right way... The only thing I can see: SVG is to date far to be as complete as VML, and is not able to do what VML can do. Just some minor details are lacking to consider VML as an according standard. Finally...SVG is progressively looking for to be like VML (15 years have been lost)Anonymous
February 11, 2010
I think VML is much better, too. What is the reason not taking it?Anonymous
February 12, 2010
Btw, the issue with Connect is that each product version (say IE9) is considered as a separate product. That is they make IE9, and treat IE8 as another produt. This isn't the case with Mozilla and other non-MS products, they have a steady progress and feature/bug tracking throughout the years, not throught a release and support cycle. I really hope MS changes this for flagship products like Internet Explorer and Media Players. Another reason for this treatment is they're linked to respective Windows releases which just makes it harder for all (why bother to pursuade MS to fix something in WMP if you may need to wait for the next Windows to see this fixed?) MS is now copying bug reports to an internal DB, should use Connect instead in my opinion and keep the feedback loop open for every product (e.g. there's no way now one can send feedback via Connect for say PowerPoint 2007)Anonymous
February 12, 2010
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February 14, 2010
Rex: VML easily offered to me (2003) a web application that I could not do with SVG: http://pierre.wostyn.free.fr/CHOIXB.htm I totally support this marvelous format. I don't suffer it only runs on IE but why not VML on every browsers? It is so simple and so accessible.
