A Modern Browser
This morning, Mozilla shared their feelings on IE9 with a post that claims to answer the question, “Is IE9 a modern browser?” While they grudgingly concede that IE9 is “a step in the right direction”, they seem to be operating under a very narrow definition of what “modern” means, that I don’t think matches the dreams that web developers and end-users actually have.
Let me help them with a definition for what we believe users and developers should expect from a “modern browser”:
- Modern browsers are fast. They take full advantage of the underlying platform to render graphics with the GPU, compile and execute JavaScript across multiple CPU cores and ensure that web applications run as close as possible to the same speed as native applications.
- Modern browsers enable rich, immersive experiences that could hitherto only be delivered through a plug-in or native application. They can blend video, vector and raster graphics, audio and text seamlessly without sacrificing performance.
- Modern browsers implement features when they are ready, providing predictable patterns that developers can rely on rather than suddenly breaking or removing specifications. They don’t check off support based on a half-completed implementation written to pass a synthetic test, but validate against a test suite that confirms interoperability.
- Modern browsers do adopt standards at an early stage of readiness so developers can experiment and validate the specification, but clearly delineate unstable prototypes as such.
It seems that others share this view. The discussion on YCombinator starts with this comment:
Maybe I'm just weird, but I consider issues like performance, reliability, and having a stable foundation to build on to be far more important than supporting your own browser's take on some hypothetical future "standard", which is just IE vs. Netscape all over again. On that basis, IE is currently the only one of the big three that is actually going in the right direction.
And Download Squad concludes its analysis of the Mozilla article with the following:
Don't get us wrong, [Firefox] is an excellent browser -- but more stuff doesn't necessarily equate to better stuff.
To our friends at Mozilla, we admire your passion for the open web, and we look forward to continued competition.
Comments
Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Nice going - you linked to video that has profanity in it.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Why is the Moz being so cranky? Could be that they haven't shipped for a year and are seeing everyone else pass them. Dropped FF for Chrome, will check out IE9 when it shipsAnonymous
February 15, 2011
I really like IE9, much better than the previous browsers. Also I prefer a FAST browser over a painfully SLOW browser (read firefox).Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
I figure 'modern' isn't the adjective he means anyway. Whoever's browser ships latest is the most modern ;-)Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I'd feel more inclined to agree with these points if:
- IE hadn't been the slowest browser historically
- IE hadn't lagged behind in "interoperability" more than other browsers historically
- IE 9 actually had the object tag working to spec
Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Are you dumb or playing dumb, this is a bogus post! We need to a valid and a technical response of why you don't support the items listed in the list of items IE9 doesn't support. Those items are incredibly useful.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I kind of agree, but what's the deal with IE9 not supporting at least text-shadow, CSS3 gradients and transitions? They've been around for a long time now and they're pretty simple aesthetic enhancements for designers.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Don't say 'Mozilla' instead of 'someone at Mozilla' ;)Anonymous
February 15, 2011
In all fairness, as a webdesigner I agree with Mozilla's team. Internet Explorer is an excellent browser - but it requires so much more effort to achieve the same result as in any other browser. If this browser would just be less annoying (Bing search by default?) and start to support some popular and important features (text shadow, inspect element) I'd actually start using it! I would say that the demands of a modern browser would be what people like first, and then the extra features.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Hi I'm IE9, I should have been IE8 but we got kinda sidetracked.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Paul Rougte works at Mozilla as their evangelist. So, his job is to speak for Mozilla. I am not sure I get the Paul doesn't speak for Mozilla angle at all. Besides that. When a company starts getting all defensive and lashing, it's a bad sign that their product can't do the talking any more.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
hahaha do you understand what the word "modern" itself means? more development, and less flattering yourself... you have done enought damage to the web community already.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I am surprised Firefox behaves in such childish ways. When did they start becoming this ugly. i always though of them as "do not evil" kind of people. Why do they start this now?Anonymous
February 15, 2011
@KickBox You clearly haven't tried Firefox 4.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
"Modern browsers enable rich, immersive experiences that could hitherto only be delivered through a plug-in or native application." But if you want to support something as simple as drag'n'drop or multiple selection for file uploads you'll need to use a 3rd party plugin or another browser. So when will IE10 be out?Anonymous
February 15, 2011
It's good to hear some of the other browser vendors providing a dissenting voice to the disingenuous marketing drivel spouted by Microsoft drones. The crowing tone of these missives is absolutely galling giving the horrendous impact IE has had on progress in web development for years. Have a little humility and just get on with trying to catch up with the rest of the world.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Let me know when IE9 runs on Linux, OS X and Solaris, I'll give it a try.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Perhaps saying IE9 is not a modern browser is a bit extreme but its really important for the IE dev team to take these comments seriously. Developers are dying to implement the latest technology/standards and even more excited to see it work in IE. The fact that CSS3 gradients don't even work is a real black eye. Given the bad PR IE has gotten in the past I think its really important not to justify sub standard behavior but listen to the comments and implement these features ASAP. Its far more powerful to say "We can do that, no problem" than to say "Well, here's why we can't or won't".Anonymous
February 15, 2011
The rich, immersive experience ( ie.microsoft.com/.../Default.html ) dropped my laptop's battery charge from 3:50h to 1:20h. No good.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Thanks for the quote :) And good post!Anonymous
February 15, 2011
This is just silly. Ask any developer what their favorite browser is and I bet at least 90% wont say IE. And if they do, ask yourself how competent that developer is.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I love zippy graphics as much as the next person (see also: WPF, Silverlight etc) but I think you should maybe also mention security as a key feature of a "modern" browser. I think we can ALL do better in that regard. Anyway, looking forward to Pwn2Own, should be fun!Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Nice! I was looking forward for this kind of response. I mean, who cares whether mozilla firefox has this and that. I just want my computer to surf internet at blazing speed. Not to wait long lag loading (Firefox, I'm talking about resource hog here) of the piece of browser, and next the site loading time. But IE9 is not a full win yet, if they ditch XP (my favourite Windows version). Whaaaat.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Whats the deal with IE9 not supporting at least text-shadow, CSS3 gradients and transitions?Anonymous
February 15, 2011
IE is the bane of any web-industry professional's existence. Its user base depends entirely on the Windows OS market share. Your definition of 'Modern Browser' above does not point out any disadvantages of other browsers. It merely attempts to minimize the criticisms of IE9. If your response to a competitors claim is 'Our product isn't quite that bad', you're wasting your time. IE is the lowest common denominator of web-browsing as we know it and likely always will be.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Hacker News !=Y Combinator, but thanks for your input.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
While I mostly agree with both sides of this argument, there's one thing you guys (the IE team) seems to keep forgetting: They're "improving" the web for WINDOWS users. If you were to release IE9 for all major platforms (sure maybe it's just Windows and OSX for now...) then we'd be talking about consistency and helping the developer community. By pushing another proprietary browser down our throats we're just going to end up in 2001 all over again. You saw what happened as a result, and we all lost 10 years of advancements on the web. What we (web developers) want to see from you guys is that you care about us. All of us. Not just Windows devs. The "web" isn't a Microsoft technology. It's about being open. Start showing that, and we'll respond the way you'd hope. Webkit is the only hope left for the web. You guys should have considered using it, and contributing your work back.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Modern browsers use "Open web technology"... :PAnonymous
February 15, 2011
Is that true IE9 doesn't support CSS3 Transitions, CSS3 Text Shadow, CSS3 Gradients and Drag'n Drop from Desktop?Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Modern browsers work on Windows XP. Oh, wait, nevermind.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
only to find IE6-8 wont run the javascript code which was the main performance enhancement over all serverside dataAnonymous
February 15, 2011
A broken browser (one that does not support web standards) makes web applications harder to develop and deliver and hinders the ability of mankind to make progress on other initiatives when they are trying to make javascript and css exceptions for IE. Mozilla's position is shared by the majority of the developers on the platform called the web.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
"Modern Browsers are FAST". Yes, but who care how much fast it is if dev must use JS and images to get some basic effects working? It is fast, but if a design need an extra CSS file, and a lot of extra images files, and some JS scripts working to get an effect, then it will slow down the web experience. Serious guys, you dont have to reinvent the wheel right now, just start by making it looks like a circle, please!... the square doesnt seems to work...Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
A modern browser should be able to work in linux.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Oh - that was a Paul Roget(?) article I read before this piece. Whatever - Paul is such a typical French dude. I use FF/Chrome but that guy is irritating. I agree w/ above point about not implementing items in a changing spec. MS is right about that. All CSS3 border-radius code e.g. I write I have to keep revisiting to update. Now, I've got a webkit/moz/and w3c standard version of border-radius. One day, I will have to go back and delete webkit/moz versions because recently Safari/FF have moved over to W3C 'border-radius' name convention. Blah Blah Blah. MS also makes a good point about GPU accel and having a browser act more natively - too bad I use Linux and am not upgrading my single XP machine any time soon - even for an IE9 beta. In the end we're all going to use Nokias again running WP7 as are only computers and comm. devices - so who cares? CheersAnonymous
February 15, 2011
@Marco C. Actually I have used Firefox. Thanks for asking. I have several browsers installed for work and testing. Firefox just isn't very good, it's just okay. If it had shipped on time it would have been a solid competitors. My guess is a year from now Firefox will have been passed by all other browsers. They have just lost their competitive edge.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Doing research (/playing) with the latest canvas stuff, I was really impressed with IE9's speed. I'm glad you guys are dragging IE into the thick of it. Definitely some work left, but keep it up!Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Maybe Mozilla should spend more time making their browser faster? After trying Chrome, Firefox is too painfully slow to be considered usable. Anyways, haters gonna hate; I'm installing IE9 on my Mom's computer as soon as its out (it currently has Chrome).Anonymous
February 15, 2011
So, text-shadow seems to be the main concern. I'm actually glad they're not supporting that one. Just because it's an option doesn't mean it should be used. The one and only requirement for a 'modern' browser: significant updates are measured in months, not years.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Modern or postmodern ;) anyway, I couldn't find any tech list around here of what features ie9 does support,so I'll stick to that the Mozilla post are true, when I develop. ThanksAnonymous
February 15, 2011
Microsoft, since you STILL won't decouple IE from the operating system properly, people don't update it. People are still on IE6 because it came with Windows XP. But there's nobody still using Mozilla 0.7 (just as old). The browser you are peddling right now is the minimum browser you and everyone else will be struggling to support in 2021! It's patently ridiculous but it's true. You are going to hold up Web development for the next decade too.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
You are right. P.S. Thank you, for IE9, it's pretty good. P.P.S. About Moz post - this is just Moz team's attempts to discredit concurent. FF is the most unsecure browser, and Moz team try look good.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Maybe Mozilla one of the best browsers, but we can't test it,because it is very heavy and gets slow. When I test latest IE9 release, I like it with all new features and as web developer I like new Developer tool ( better than FF 4 WDT I say ). Keep going, you are on the right way.
Samir. ( Azerbaijan, Baku )
Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
If you're going to include comments (which hold a TON of weight in value we all know), maybe you should read your own. Web developers everywhere complain about IE and EVERY post I've seen from Microsoft has basically just ignored these facts saying "No, you're wrong, look this ONE person likes it". What do you have to say about that? Nothing. You're going to ignore EVERYTHING that REAL people say and continue on like you own the world.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Why not respond to the content of their argument instead of using vague terms like "immersive experiences"? And bragging about speed only goes so far. IE9 IS lacking features that web-developers need and that are hard and sometimes impossible to emulate. Why make web developers lose their time AGAIN with this new IE version? Mozilla's post might be a bit cocky but they state facts that web developers can't ignore. There are so many good browsers out there that show it is perfectly possible to have a browser implement recent standards correctly, that one can't help but wonder if it is really in Microsoft's intrest to do this (and not just pretend to do so like right now). I for one won't recommend IE9 to anyone.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
I've just run sunspider under win7/iE9 and win7/chrome9 in the same machine and the results speak for itselves. IE is the slower: ** TOTAL **: 4.75x as slow 285.6ms +/- 0.5% 1355.7ms +/- 0.3% significantAnonymous
February 15, 2011
Honestly, as web developer I am dreading the day IE9 hits mainstream. I didn't believe IE9 was going to be a modern browser even before the post at Mozilla. IE has been playing catch up and holding the web back for years. While IE9 is an upgrade, it sadly holds back devs who want to build more robust sites but are often hamstrung due to having to support IE and its inadequacies.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I have been using the IE 9 RC for about a week now and a really like it for the most part. There are still pleanty of things that are broken in IE 9 (unless it is in compat mode) that work fine on all other browsers (FF, Chrome, Safari, Opera). The other thing that kills me is no integrated spell checker. Every other browser has it.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
Not sure I'll ever understand why MS doesn't just start using WebKit as a base. I'm not sure what they gain by creating another browser that designers and web developers have to complain about. IE9 might be great now, but you really need to consider what it's place will be in 5 years. From the looks of it, in five years MS will still be three years behind WebKit and Gecko. Which brings me back to my first question, why not just use WebKit?Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
There seems to be a lot of anger at Mozilla publishing a list of statistics based on third-party benchmarks. What's wrong? The data, or their daring to publish it? Meanwhile, I'll stick with the commonly accepted definition of the word 'modern'. I can't afford to redefine it every time I read an MSDN evangelism post.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
That classic MS arrogance is visible in the fact that there isnt a single questionmark in your article. Stop preaching, start listening to developers, and you just might get it right for once. You did it (although long overdue) with windows7, Im sure you can do it with IE (9, 10, 15?)..Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
Well, since Microsoft and fanbois claim IE9 to be a modern browser, then I'm gonna code my websites per established industry standards. Certainly Microsoft didn't make IE9 just conform to a subset of that and released a faux test suite to suit their pace of development and competency.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I would be more open to the every day use of Internet Explorer if it wasn't such a thorn in my side for the past 7 or 8 years. Every time a new version is released I hold my breath in hopes that it's up to par with every other browser. I want to see it succeed and become as promising as its competition, but it never happens. I don't understand how such simple features (CSS3) are overlooked over and over. I appreciate the focus on speed and performance but I would think it best if the IE team would refrain from releasing new versions until even the simplest of features are implemented. Perhaps it's time to abandon the project altogether and focus on something that uses webkit? I grew tired of waiting for a truly modern version of Internet Explorer ages ago. Also, FYI, overflow: auto works much better on textareas than overflow-y: hidden does. Why would anyone ever use hidden overflow on a textarea to begin with? I had to type my comment into a plain text document and then paste it into the comment textarea just so I could see what I was typing. The joys of web developer/designer pet peeves and usability failure.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
"Don't get us wrong, [Firefox] is an excellent browser -- but more stuff doesn't necessarily equate to better stuff." Paul Rouget's blog post wasn't about "stuff" it had to do with the adoption of modern web standards, namely HTML5 and CSS3. His issue was that the test results published by Microsoft were misleading. You can justify your definition of a "modern browser" all you want. I still need to make a separate style sheet for IE when I build "modern" websites.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
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February 15, 2011
I wouldn't hate every version of IE nearly as much and nitpick over missing features like text-shadowing if I didn't have to wait years for the next release. Why are you the only browser who releases and then adds no additional support until the next full version? You release security packages regularly so why not web standards updates? Everything you do is years too late it seems and it blows my mind that everyone at Microsoft seems blinded by this fact. Do you seriously think its a mere coincidence that developers curse your name on a daily basis? Do you realize how much extra time and money we spend wasting to support your garbage?? What's your argument for not adding these features... don't want to be too modern? Just f****ing add them!!Anonymous
February 15, 2011
The man with the bad haircut (must be a M$ thing) makes a good point.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I think IE9 is a step in the right direction but we really need FASTER ITERATIONS. We can't have these 1-2 year release cycles. The web moves faster than that, now.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
I gotta agree with the Mozilla guys: IE is consistently at least two years behind all other browsers as far as being useful for the user experience, which comes down to support for web standards. The fact is, your browser may be fast, but it's slowing the rest of the world down.Anonymous
February 15, 2011
A modern Browser is available for MORE THAN ONE plattform. IE is Windows only, so it can't be modern.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
"WarpKat 15 Feb 2011 2:32 PM Nice going - you linked to video that has profanity in it." Oh no, profanity. Are we 3 years old, here?Anonymous
February 16, 2011
Mozilla hasn't launched for a year because they haven't needed to launch for a year. I have yet to come across a problem with Firefox, but have had to redesign numerous web pages just to get them to work in IE8 and IE9. I find Firefox to be fast, useful, bug-free, and straightforward to use. IE8 and IE9 freeze often and don't support many of the features that I like to use. Face it, Microsoft, Mozilla defined "modern."Anonymous
February 16, 2011
Tim, MS almost needs two browsers. You need an IE Corporate to be stable and rarely updated to support all Enterprise apps built for it and an IE Fun which could be updated more like Chrome.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
Hi Tim, I've stuck with IE for a looong time just recently changed to Chrome for the speed improvement(it feels snappy, IE8 more inertia), the plugins and easy tabbing, just kept IE8 for my webmail because Chrome wasn't supported. I tried IE9 and it is an improvement over IE8, because it look and feels a lot like Chrome, but now my webmail didn't work. It's probably some Java thing that's not supported, and your probably right about not supporting it; but I can't use my webmail, so I changed back. Same thing happened with Windows7, I went back to WindowsXP because the VPN client didn't have the CHAP version our corporate router had. Again, your probably right, but I have work to do. Pitty though.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
IE9 still lacks support for object getters and setters (except on DOM objects). This is a critical feature that every other modern browser supports. NO, IE9 IS NOT a modern browser yet.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
There is no future in internet explorer. Microsoft should just stop developing such a backward browser.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
> "A modern Browser is available for MORE THAN ONE plattform. IE is Windows only, so it can't be modern." There is Safari for Mac. Less then 1% users with linux - hm... No body cares.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
Dude, none of your points actually refute any of their claims. You just say "They are wrong, here is what is important in a browser." Yes all those things you mentioned are important but thats no excuse for being late to the party, which IE9 clearly is. You don't get a cookie for NOT doing things you ought.Anonymous
February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
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February 16, 2011
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February 17, 2011
www.mozilla.org/.../firefox36.html What's waiting the Mozilla team to add a Protected Mode instead of just talking? wiki.mozilla.org/.../Protected_mode wiki.mozilla.org/.../Feature_Brainstorming:Security Security has lower priority and a sandboxing system does nothing for them?Anonymous
February 20, 2011
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