Shorter hours in software industry
CNET article here on the reduction in hours worked per week at software development companies. So I have an opinion on this (I know, shocking, isn't it?) that was not explored in the article. Many people who are putting in the big hours are doing so out of choice (in the article, there's a guy who canceled his ski weekend...sounds like that was his choice and one he regrets). When I first started here, there were many nights where I was here until nine or ten at night. This was because I was excited to be here, I was getting cool stuff done, I loved my clients (microsoft.com...I'll tell you about a job they have open later today). And it was totally my choice! Yeah, that is what happens when you hire passionate people...they are often passionate about exactly what they are working on. Did my manager love that I was staying here late and working my butt off? What do you think?
It is a rare manager that will walk by your office at 6 PM and say "the work day is over, you need to go home now". It's nice if they do, but I've rarely had managers that even cared what hours I worked. At Microsoft, I come and go as I please...sometimes I go shopping in the middle of the day or take a long lunch and run errands. I can do that because I don't have specific "work hours". If I take some personal time in the middle of the day, I make it up. As long as the job gets done, it doesn't really matter what hours I worked. So nobody needs to be alarmed if they see me online at 8PM. It may simply mean that there was a sale at Nordstrom that I couldn't pass up.
I also don't think that there's anything *wrong* with someone that wants to work more than 40 hours a week. When I am loving what I am doing, it's easy for me to work a 50 hour week (sometimes more, if I choose). We are all grown-ups here that can make their own choices.
So, I hope that what is driving the reduction in work hours is employee choice and increased worker efficiency.
Comments
- Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Another reason tech jobs are flowing overseas - Lazy american workers. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
volvo: Cripes, it's not like we Americans get 6 weeks of vacation every year like our Euro-slacker friends. ;)
heather: To call working more than 40 hours a week solely an employees choice is to sound clueless. It fails entirely to acknowledge that software folks seldom have control over our own deadlines, which are all too often unrealistic. Thus the choice is a) work extra hours, or b) keep standing up against unrealistic schedules. For most people that need to work for a living, b) is seldom a realistic option, as it generally involves the loss of possibility for advancement and (potentially) loss of continued employment. And yes, many, many people are still faced with this dilemma, even within Microsoft.
What's that? You say "Just leave your job and find a better one?" And go where? - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Don't forget there is a lot more motivation to put in the extra hours when you have half a million in stock options calling your name, other than the googlites there's not many with that incentive any more. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Wow...evidently, I am lazy and clueless. Thanks guys...you are fun ; ) Curt, please note that I said "Many people who are putting in the big hours are doing so out of choice ". I didn't say all. My point was that the article didn't discuss the people who did this out of choice (and my example explained that I was one of these people). I didn't call it "solely" an employees choice, as you said that I did. Maybe you want to re-read what I said before you get up in my grill, huh? - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Dave-it's certainly not an incentive to many of Googles post IPO employees. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
Great points Chris (and you know what I think about the anonymous troll posters here anyhoo...just not that credible). I had a similar upbringing in that I was a child of divorce (also at 11) and my dad lived out of state. For me, being single, it's totally OK if I want to work into the night. I do have some guilt about my dog, but I can let him out and get back to work if I want to. My flexibility in being OK with working at night comes from what I'm used to. So I see it working both ways. But again, totally my choice.
I was just this morning reading a newsweek article called "The Mommy Myth" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6959880/site/newsweek/) that explains why the whole concept of "having it all" isn't necessarily what everyone wants. It's pretty interesting and supports your points, Chris. In case anyone is wondering why I was reading the article, it's to understand workforce trends....I won't be making any baby announcements here....I promise ; - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
So Heather, now the real truth about your maternal instincts starts to come out...
Seriously, there does seem to be a real feeling that younger workers are placing increasing importance on work/life balance. I read a piece in American Demographics some time ago that echoed exactly the points Chris was making. From a personal perspective, I would definitely place more time off above higher wages - my family lives on the other side of the world and a trip home to see them just about cleans me out of vacation time for the whole year. Mind you, vacation and hours worked are really kind of different. I don't think it's as big a deal to work long hours if you know that you can take time off when you need to recharge; it's the less than three weeks total vacation and sick time a year that gets me down!
Mark - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Chris: You make some great points that I completely concur with.
I would definitely up my vacation from 3 weeks a year to 6 instead of a comparable wage increase! My family comes first...I want to make certain that my daughter does not have to go through the divorce syndrome (my parent's divorced when I was 11 also...what's up with that age?)! I am always home for dinner in the evening with my wife and daughter! I watch my daughter if my wife works on the weekends (my Dad made my Mom get a babysitter even if he was still going to be home).
My wife and I also made the choice that one of us would stay home with our daughter. It just so happens that my career choice has more than twice the salary potential of hers (she's a fire-fighter) so she stays home. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
OK a couple comments...first, you guys are what most women want their men to be (if they are inclined to be married or otherwise mututally commited, of course)...so keep doing that. Almost makes me want to be married...nah ; ) Just kidding, kind of. I'm going to point my more bitter friends to your comments ; )
Chris-I would have the same problem staying at home with kids. Viva la choice, right?
Tod-sounds like you have an ideal work situation (at least for someone who does the 24X7 stuff...which is not for everybody). How much of that did you know about during the interview process (the flexibility, etc.) and how much were you surprised by when you got here? Did it impact your decision to join? Just curious as to how important it is to people that are making a career decision and whether they typcially will seek out that kind of info or is it something their recruiter and/or potential manager should be serving up to them during the process. And also, how cool is it that your wife is a fire fighter? Right on!
OK, about Mark, everyone doesn't know he's a Brit (with a texas accent to boot). So he's used to those 5 weeks of vacation..right Mark? I can totally understand they you would need more than a few weeks to get back to the village. I'm going to keep bugging hyou to write a book about the village. I know you have a book in there ; ) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
The way in which Microsoft stack ranks its employees against each other come review time means you have to put in at least as many hours as those at the same level within your group or risk the dreaded 2.5 review. That was fine when I was single and didn't mind putting in 60 hour work weeks. But once I had kids I realized it wouldn't work within my current group. I'm sure there were other groups at Microsoft that found a better "work/life balance" but it certainly wasn't the case within my group. The freedom that Heather talks about being able come and go as you please also comes with a price. You're expected to be available by email at anytime. I feel bad for those people whose main "passion" is work. I'd much rather spend an extra 10 hours a week with my wife and kids than at work. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
The way in which Microsoft stack ranks its employees against each other come review time means you have to put in at least as many hours as those at the same level within your group or risk the dreaded 2.5 review. That was fine when I was single and didn't mind putting in 60 hour work weeks. But once I had kids I realized it wouldn't work within my current group. I'm sure there were other groups at Microsoft that found a better "work/life balance" but it certainly wasn't the case within my group. The freedom that Heather talks about being able come and go as you please also comes with a price. You're expected to be available by email at anytime. I feel bad for those people whose main "passion" is work. I'd much rather spend an extra 10 hours a week with my wife and kids than at work. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
Heather: Yeah, I think that I have it pretty good, but especially now. I've jumped around quite a bit since joining in '99 and for the most part I've had good managers which I think makes or breaks a job. All in all though, my current position is the best I've had @ MS. I have been given an awesome opportunity to learn new things (moving from a support engineer role to more of a dev role in our org) and grow my career within the company. It's also nice to have a regular schedule...that makes being on-call a lot more tolerable.
Basically, if you work in Operations then you're either on-call or working shifts (or both if you're a lead/mgr). I was well aware of the requirements during the interview process. I worked shift work for the first 3-1/2 years (loved swing...hated graveyard), which certainly required devotion and understanding from my wife. We had several conversations about working shifts and being on-call before I interviewed and even afterward. It's never easy on a relationship to work different hours and have different schedules. Luckily my wife (of 8 years) rocks and also that was before our daughter was born.
To answer your question directly, "Just curious as to how important it is to people that are making a career decision and whether they typcially will seek out that kind of info or is it something their recruiter and/or potential manager should be serving up to them during the process."
Yes! That information should be provided to the candidate up front! When I moved to management and started participating in interviews (both FTE loops and contractor positions) that was the first thing I reinforced with the candidate. The recruiters were expressly told to emphasize that also so luckily I never surprised anyone. :)
And yes, I think it's totally cool that my wife is a fire-fighter! ;-) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Brett-sorry, but you are wrong. You are making sweeping statements and interpreting my comments (please don't...add your own, but no need to tell people what I am saying..I can speak for myself). For me personally, there has been no correlation between hours worked and review (in fact, if any relation, it may have been the opposite of what you said). If every performer did the same exact quality of work, that would make sense but we are not robots. Anyway, I'm cool with my reviews...I feel good about them so no need for me to try and explain why they are what they are. But that's just me...
Also, I am not expected to be available at any time. I don't log on from home unless I am taking a "work-from-home" day. I do occassionally blog from home...again, my choice. I don't check messages on the weekends, because I choose not to. I've probably worked one weekend day in the last 6 months (and again, that was my choice).
Sounds like maybe you had a beef with a previous manager. I don't have that beef. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Mark -- Wine, cheese, english/irish beer... you are not nice making me think of that stuff at work! :) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Heather -- Thanks on the compliments. My wife is a saint that has a heart of gold. That is the only way she would let me get away from being away for so many nights now that I am trying to brand myself by speaking and attending many user groups and functions. I have been out of balance the last few months. But people that stay home to care for kids actually have tougher jobs than the people who leave for work each day. If I mess up at work a software projects might slip or gets some bugs, if she messes up 2 lives are affected. so really I am lucky to have a woman like her. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Yeah....19 hour work weeks and beer and cheese. COuld cause some dogestive problems but otherwise sounds great! I'll put in my transfer to London now! ; ) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Heather, by putting your comments on a public blog they become open to interpretation. Are we all just supposed to take what you say as gospel? I hope not. It sounds like you've found the ideal group within MS that values the work/life balance. That helps explain why building 25 is packed at 7 pm and bulding 19 isn't. :-) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
I'm not in building 19, but that's beside the point. I agree that what I said was my interpretation. Totally. When you said "The freedom that Heather talks about being able come and go as you please also comes with a price.", you were saying what I was talking about. That wasn't what I was talking about (my freedom doesn't come at a price). But you absolutely have a right to disagree...just not on my behalf. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Heather, a) I've re-read your article and I don't think I've appreciably stretched your words. b) I never said that you said “all,” “some,” or “none.” But to say “We are all grown-ups here that can make their own choices” is precisely where I think you’re wrong--and I’m not referring to the “grown-up” part. See ya. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
OK Curt, we don't have to agree. But we all do have choices, even if the choice is to stay in a job or look for another.
Jeff---I know the zone of which you speak ; ) Cubes are tough. I am very easily distracted. So, at my last job, the gal sitting in the cube across from me leaving a voicemail for her cats would totally break my train of thought. I was in a bullpen environment in my first recruiting job (1994!) and that was the only time that an open environment like that worked for me. I still got totally distracted but I also learned a lot from co-workers. The benefits have to outweigh the potential for ditraction and lost productivity. Not sure if I could ever work in a cube again. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Ok - I have to say I’m completely confused with some of the points a few commenters are trying to make, but I feel like I need to jump in here on a few points:
I agree with Heather that (at least where we work) there is no correlation between hours worked and review score … and like she said, sometimes it’s the opposite relation of what Brett suggested. But I guess that could also be b/c the times that I’m performing the best, I’m also loving my job the most so I work with passion and fury and finish my work quickly. But I definitely don’t think working more hours equates to a higher review score. And I want to run out shopping during the day, I can. It just means that I’ll make up my work at another time, which I will. But I won’t be “docked” on my review.
We also have more traditional “business hours” in the recruiting org. We are expected to get into the office earlier than most other employees (especially folks who work in technical roles … sorry, but it’s true) so we are also finished with our work sooner and we don’t “dilly-dally” during the day as much (sorry, but again it’s true … no foos ball machines here.) That’s why we are gone by 5 or 6. I wouldn’t say our group values work/life balance any more than any other group. I think work/life balance is what you make of it, and if you want it, you can have it. If you don’t want it, then you won’t have it. I truly believe you can make it work. If you can’t, then you definitely need to change jobs.
All that said, I am different from Heather in that I do check email a lot from home. I attended college just as the email era was heating up so I think I’m just still addicted. I check it several times in the evenings, and two or three times a day on the weekends. Some people think that makes me too tied to work, but I think it just helps me relax and feel more in control. - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 22, 2005
Gretchen-great points! I didn't think about the traditional work hours in recruiting thing. Just lucky to have a role where I don't have to be in at 8AM, but most recruiters are here at that time because that is when the interview days starts. "Rush hour" on campus is usually 9:30-10 as far as I've been able to tell.
As you all know, I didn't attend college during the e-mail era. I didn't even start recruiting during it (paper resumes...filing cabinets...and fax machines..whee!). So it wasn't really a big part of my life. Also, given that Gretchen's husband is a tech guy, technology is obviously a part of their home. Not so much mine (I keep my PC in one of those desk armoirs so I don't have to look at it...it messed up my feng shui). Again, it's totally up to the individual.
Jeff-I bet someone has done such a study. Maybe an organizational psych person would see something like this. At my last company, only Directors and VPs got offices...all the rest of us were in cubes. I definitely did get the sense that it was "time to leave" when the cubes near mine were vacated (but most of us took the train to work and so peoples' work schedules were dictated, to some extent, by the train schedules). - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
Oh, and Josh reminded me of another good reason why Bldg 19 clears out by 5:00. Half the people who park in our lot are interview candidates who are mostly done by 5. :) - Anonymous
February 22, 2005
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February 23, 2005
Yes, Heather. My manager usually says to me to go home when he pass through the offices, and see me at work at 9 o'clock in the evening. I really appreciate that, because show me that he understands that each people has a private life. I saw many managers which ask you where are going when they see you leaving home at 9 PM after 12-14 hours of working. It happend to me in the past. Anyway, as you said, I stay at work because I like my job very much, and I even forget to look to my watch. I love to have flexible hours, to came and leava when I want, and do my exciting work. Too bad, that you cannot find these things everywhere.
Bye,
Catalin - Anonymous
February 24, 2005
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February 25, 2005
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