I want you to want me

Groucho Marx may have had it right when it came to club membership. Well, he may not have had it right, but at least he was funny.

When it comes to the business relationship, specifically the customer relationship, it's another story entirely. All other things (like product quality) being equal, my interest in working with a company is in direct correlation to their interest in having me as a customer. You say you try harder? That works for me. Prove it and I'm yours.

One side effect of my over-active brain (I'm always thinking deeply about something else, especially as I pour motor oil into the gas tank) is that it also comes with a need to be heard. Thoughts bounce around in my brain like pong (remember that?) until I let them out. I try to let out only the good ones. But at the end of the day, I have an intense need to be heard. When I was young, my grandmother explained it as "being the only 5 year old with an opinion on everything"; grandpa just called me "motor mouth".

In fact, I find that when I can let people I work with know about this need to be heard, it really helps build relationships. I like to throw ideas out, debate, see what works. The alternative is obsessing on "what if" and that just doesn't work for me.  The goal at the end of the day is a better work product.

When it comes to new product development, listening to customer feedback is the most important thing you do. There are a lot of other things you can mess up and still survive, but if you don't gain the hearts and minds of your customers, none of that other stuff matters. It can take a while to get there, especially when your product serves multiple customer segments with conflicting needs. But at the end of the day, listening in earnest can not only help you gain needed insight but can also generate a ridiculous amount of good will with customers. And if the customer is me, I will practically want to hug you (and I'm not a hugger).

Today, I had lunch with Marc (the CEO), DeWayne and Rohan from TheLadders. They were in town for some meetings and invited me to lunch. I believe I mentioned before what a big fan I am of the company. They took the whole job posting board equation and they flipped it. Employers post for free and candidates/job seekers pay for a subscription (I don't remember how much it is but it's not expensive). My main contact at TheLadders, Michael, has always offered to give my feedback to their product development team and has often said the magic words "we'll get that into the feature queue for the next release" (or something to that effect).

So when I arrived at lunch with my "wish list" of product features, imagine my pleasure when the person that pulled out a piece of paper and started taking notes was their CEO. Many tools that recruiters use, they use because they have sunk dollars into them. With a free-to-employer tool like TheLadders, the cost is my time. The more their team satisfies my need to be heard with regard to product features, the larger my perceived investment in TheLadders (see how loyalty snowballs?). Of course none of this would matter if we weren't making hires through TheLadders (and we are making hires).

I'm not sure if Marc & Co. have thought about the listening x time = customer loyalty thing. It feels like they just want to produce the best product possible (to both employers and $100K + job seekers) and that means talking to people. On this side of the customer relationship, though, the combination of customer focus and humility makes me a fan....and a customer.

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to endorsing other companies. I think you do that too much and people become immune to it. They stop seeing you as a credible influence. If everything is great, what is your standard?

At the same time, having had such positive interactions with TheLadders team has turned me into a customer evangelist. Lucky for TheLadders, I am a customer evangelist with a blog. And a little open time on my calendar this afternoon.

Comments

• Anonymous
  June 08, 2006
  I'm a little less convinced that Ladders is all about the customer. Lately they've added some features that make me think they're much more concerned with making money than with quality. They've replaced some of their best resume writers with lesser quality referrals and stopped referring readers to the resume services' websites. I assume this is because they have started to collect an affiliate fee and therefore their readers are paying though the nose and getting a lesser quality product.
  
  In the same vein, the only articles they publish now are by the providers they recommend on their own website. My own favorite writer has vanished from their newsletter, I assume for this reason.
  
  Ladders used to be all about their customers. I'm not so sure they are anymore.

• Anonymous
  June 08, 2006
  Excellent posting!
  
  I believe that this type of site will work out great. The simple fact that the job-seeker is willing to pay for the site access; gives him/her a higher degree of professionalism/seriousness/want from an employer’s perspective.
  
  Too often, I see people not willing to spend a penny on something that will improve their skills or marketability. Are they penny-pinchers or not as professionally-driven?
  
  About being a valued customer:
  I had an experience at Enterprise last year. A car I received was not as clean as you'd expect on the inside. I didn't notice it since I picked it up at night in an underground garage.  I called to complain the next morning. They offered to exchange the car; however, I couldn't do the exchange due to time constraints. They asked me to remind them on return.
  
  I returned the car. They asked the usual "Were you satisfied with your experience?” I responded in the negative and told them what happened. They look in their system, found my complaint, apologized, and gave a 10 percent discount. They asked if that satisfied me completely. I thanked the discount but mentioned that my satisfaction though better was not complete. The manager then offered a 50 percent discount and a free upgrade on my next rental. Was I satisfied? Yes, yes, and yes.
  
  They cared and made sure I left a happy camper. I'm sure; if I had still not been satisfied they would've given me an even better discount. Their "care" was enough to satisfy my need of appreciation.
  

• Anonymous
  June 08, 2006
  Hmm, Layla, I have no doubt that they will read your feedback here and use it. I'm not familiar with those things you mentioned. Let's see if they either explain the reasons or address it otherwise. Thanks for the feedback...good to hear it from the job seekers' standpoint!
  
  Ben-good points. that definitely sounds like a company that cares about customers. Interesting that the person you spoke with was empowered to negotiate your satisfaction. That's really an interesting concept. It allows them to not over-compensate and you remain a happy customer. Very interesting.

• Anonymous
  June 08, 2006
  Not a fan of the Ladders. Cancelled my subscription. Didnt find it to be user friendly and always had issues when a recruiter contacted me and swapping contact info. I think that interface has to be easier to use. It was almost like you were swapping contact info on a dating website and then there was a disconnect. Id give my info and never hear from the recruiter.
  
  I felt that there were very few jobs for what I was looking for, and some were posted all over the internet. I am much happier using industry specific job posting websites/newsletters. I also like Monster's interface, LinkedIn, and indeed.com.

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  Wine-Oh, I think that may have had more to do with the recruiter than TheLadders, just based on the criticisms I hear  of many recruiters in general. I've never had technical problems in exchanging info with a prospect or anything like that, though I haven't tried it from the other side. So yours is feedback they should get, obviously.
  
  I know they are working on getting more jobs on there.
  
  I think your point about using many tools is a good one. People should use several options and definitely proactively network. My team also used LinkedIn.  

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  Paying money to find open positions?  What better way to feel desperate.  I spend enough time and money seeking positions.  Actually paying a third party (Ladders) for exposure might be more efficient, but it certainly feels cheap.  I've had significantly better results searching out my own opportunites, ie Nick Corcodilos' approach.  

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  I just heard from one of the folks at TheLadders and their whole team is reading these comments. If you have ideas, recommendations, cheap shots, post them here. They will see them.

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  Heather... Points well taken.
  
  Id like to add this for the reading pleasue of the folks at The Ladders:
  
  I reccomend maybe the Ladders take the less is more approach. Pre-screen the recruiters using the service. Follow up and see how many connections were made, so there can be some statistics out there. Then I would be able to guage if it was money well spent.
  
  -I do give them kudos for those exclusive postings where it says you get your The Ladders Membership fee back if you are hired. Id like to see more incentives like this and more exclusive postings.
  
  -I dont like going to 4 or 5 message boards and seeing the same jobs. It would set them out as a market leader if they went for the exclusive type positions and those more rare and unique spots.
  
  I am now stepping away from the mike!

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  Wine-Oh, no doubt they appreciate that feedback!

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  The comment has been removed

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  The problem with statistics is that 80% of them are made up on the spot...
  
  Using the statistics of contacts vs hires doesn't tell me anything other than the person viewing your resume doesn't see you as a fit for the positions.  That actually might be more telling of a person's resume or qualifications than it does of the recruiters -- but that would only be statistically.
  
  I used the ladders before I came to Microsoft and enjoyed the concept, but can't say as I used it much. I let my subscription lapse when I came to work here.  I signed up again today just to look at the features on here and see if I had anything else to add.  If nothing else, you can claim you prompted a re-subscription from me.  Are you getting commission?  Marc, you reading this? :)
  
  I will say that when I first signed up, I wasn't entirely thrilled with the resume reviewing process.  I passed my resume to a few people for the "free review", but all I got was a bunch of people telling me that I needed to pay before they gave advice.
  
  I like that the resume experts now have before and after samples of their work.  It would be nice if they had to put more than a few up and it would be even better if people who used their services were able to rate them / provide feedback on the writers themselves.
  
  And that's all I have to say about that.

• Anonymous
  June 09, 2006
  Wine-Oh, more good points. I think is smart of you to have put that much thought into your search.

• Anonymous
  June 10, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 11, 2006
  Nice post Paul. I think you and I are on the same page here. I like the broken window analogy. Coming from a background in customer service, I tried to go above and beyond with clients and they began to appreciate it after a while. Yes Marc has an opportunity to do the same. An E mail back from the client would be great, instead of Marc's auto generated one. I think he and his team have a great opportunity to go after the exclusives and get rid of the redundant ads that are on other job sites. That will definitely make The Ladders stand out more.

• Anonymous
  June 11, 2006
  The comment has been removed

• Anonymous
  June 11, 2006
  Lots of commenters over at Heather's "Marketing at Microsoft" Blog regarding TheLadders.com and our visit with Heather. I've posted the...

• Anonymous
  June 11, 2006
  See, guys? I told you they were listening ; )

• Anonymous
  June 11, 2006
  Marc-
  
  Thanks for your responses. Much appreciated and its good to hear that you take these comments seriously.  
  
  Do those of us who frequent Heathers' blog and submit feedback to postings such as this get a complimentary membership to TheLadders.com? :) Just askin'
  
  

• Anonymous
  June 12, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 12, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 12, 2006
  wow! say, Kristen, that's a really good idea. we should definitely look at using our ability to aggregate candidates with particular skill sets into a mass, concurrent audience. i could see companies looking for, say, Java developers, or brand marketers, or enterprise software salespeople liking the ability to "market" to a cohesive group simultaneously.
  
  thanks! I'll put in on the product development list....

• Anonymous
  June 12, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 13, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 13, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 13, 2006
  Well as a past premium subscriber to the Ladders and an extremely qualified one to boot I have never received one follow up to an application. Forget about an interview. I have one of those hybrid backgrounds--concert producer, event marketer, publishing vp and consultant--but I found the results on the Ladders no different than those of Monster or any of the other web sites. I still get their weekly email but I hardly ever go to their site any more. Kristen's idea of creating mass first interviews via videoconferencing is quite on point. Use of that sort of technology would certainly entice me to return to their site. Otherwise, what the site consists of right now doesn't seem to do the job.
  Jude

• Anonymous
  June 13, 2006
  Jude-
  
  Glad to see other hybrids out there who share this experience. I got 2 nibbles from The Ladders postings.  1 didnt go anywhere and the other they were sending my resume to the client, and I am not holding my breath. After 2 months I cancelled my subscription. Kept seeing the same ads over and over and on other websites. If I knew a site like the Ladders had the premium hard to find, out of the norm jobs, I would make it my homepage and live on it til I found the right position.
  
  I have had a lot more success in looking on industry specific and out of the way job sites, networking, using a career coach and reading this blog, than with some of the online job sites. Forget Hotjobs. Wont even look at it. 9 times out of 10 I used Indeed.com which scours all the job sites for me. Saves a lot of time and wear and tear on my mouse.  
  
  Having just finished business school I wanted to design a job website that had everything in it that I felt it was missing. Unfortunately we went with a different idea. I just feel from a job hunter stand point I have alot to say from personal experience. I know what I would look for in a site, I know what turns me off. Coupled with my client facing and technology skills, I havent ruled the idea out yet. That or write a book on all the colorful people I have met in my interviews.
  
  Sorry for the novel here.

• Anonymous
  June 13, 2006
  PS-
  
  Along the lines of Kristens suggestions, which are great, I want to propose this to Marc and the Ladders Team...
  
  Have you considered putting together an advisory team? For example a group of people who are active in their search (in exchange for a complimentary membership for a month) and have them document their results with your service. Then be able to provide feedback on a few categories. Such as: interaction with recrutiers/hiring companies, follow through, ease of finding jobs, etc.
  
  Im happy to volunteer and help with this.
  

• Anonymous
  June 14, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 14, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
  Like many of the people here, I cancelled my sub to The Ladders, although I continue to monitor them through the basic service.  And I did provide feedback on why - it included the fact that a lot of openings are posted repeatedly, sometimes twice a week, so there weren't any fresh openings to speak of in a two-week period; many of the postings did not come from recruiters but were clearly skimmed from company websites (and in at least one case, appeared as "new" on The Ladders six weeks after it was posted on the company site - when they were in final interviews for the position); and a number of these were still listed as "open" when they had long ago been filled.
  
  I think that if they make such a big deal about getting openings and leads from recruiters, Marc and The Ladders need to really get their openings from recruiters.  If they are going to include openings gleaned from websites, they shouldn't present such an emphasis on the recruiters.  And I told them so.   All I received in return was an autoreply, but maybe they will read the comments someday.

• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
  About 18 months ago I was looking for an opportunity and subscribed (paid a fee) to Ladders!  I would add to the above comments, they were about as much help to me as a "Chocolate Teapot"!  Once again I'm looking, but now there are no "free" listings.  So it's very difficult to gauge if they have any jobs that would interest me.
  
  Then I get an email from them saying a recruiter want's to contact me, but I have to sign-up (pay-up) first.
  
  If there was a real opportunity, I'd be fine with paying a small fee!  But with their current approach, I'm unlikely to go further.

• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
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• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
  I wasn't too bothered when they dropped the free listings, most of those listings could be found elsewhere anyhow. I signed up for the premium membership and initially was impressed with the job listings in the marketing area. But now after about 6 weeks of membership, I am seeing a lot of the same job openings repeating and not much that is new.
  
  My suggestion would be to add other value-add services/features to make it compelling for the user to stick around longer, maybe past the time they get hired. I'm thinking of things like networking events, discussion forums and wikis of hiring companies, recruiters, interview tactics, etc., available only to paid subscribers.
  
  

• Anonymous
  June 19, 2006
  Basicaly i want to know that are y married  and your answer is no or yes then i have a comment that i am fall in some thing that dont mentions whencesoever i want articulate you something if you also dont mind.Emotional something does not come to just call though i may you say some.this is my comments and i also write  this picture women.

• Anonymous
  August 25, 2006
  I feel there are a couple things that job seekers must remember...1. Many recruiters don't really care about you as a job seeker...they are there to do their job and make their money (if commissioned) others are just lousy at what they do, they're just polished at being lousy.  2. Many recruiters will not play fair with job seekers...some recruiters  go fishing...see your resume, call or contact regarding a position, give you an idea that there is an impending interview, then turn into a "ghost" (what's up with that).  If you did get a company name and do some more research on the company site, often the position that they've promoted clearly states "No Recruiters".
  
  So, I don't really blame the Ladders for recruiting issues...there are many more unprofessional recruiters than unprofessional job seekers, it's just darn hard to find one that will treat you like a human being and truly search for or have a position for you when they contact you.
  
  Maybe some recruiters should be ranked, too.  For instance, if you mess with customers on ebay...guess what...you're not doing business on ebay!  If I can't trust a recruiter, what's the point?
  
  I would say the the Ladders is doing what they do best and trying to improve their service.  Again, I am not overwhelmed with the quality of the recruiters using the service, but there are some out there who seem to be busy...and they might be who you really want...for good reason.
  
  

• Anonymous
  January 17, 2007
  I was just wondering if after I subscribe to the ladders, the chances in finding a job would be good.  Some website show a  lot of job opportunities and when you subscribe, and you try to search for job, there is no jobs available.

• Anonymous
  January 17, 2007
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