Is it time for a Windows Embedded Hobbyist Program?

Don’t be fooled by the content of this post, read all the way through to see where I’m going with it, Stewart Tansley would understand, this topic has been debated before.

I have respect for these guys and gals at MP3Car.com and other hobbyist sites like MSFN.org. It's geeks like this that want to tinker with the OS at a level that is difficult to do with Full Windows XP Pro/Home, but much easier with Linux or XP Embedded.

The goal:
Build your own car audio or navigation system running on either XP Pro that is trimmed to the point it'll run on a Compact Flash, or build on top of XP Embedded. And before you ask - No, I’m not referring to the AutoPC on CE (er, I guess it’s called Windows Automotive now?).

The problem:
Since most hobbyists that attempt this don't want or need to learn the XPe Tools, most resort to hacking out files from Pro to reduce the footprint, experiment, fail, learn from their mistakes, tinkering some more and succeed with lots of time and patience.

But the interesting thing to me here isn't just that they're hobbyists and learning about the Windows Internals along the way to hacking the OS to meet their requirements. The interesting part is that they're leveraging some of the Embedded Enabling Features from XP Embedded within their XP Pro and Home SKUs to accomplish their goals.

For instance they're leveraging Bootprep, EWF, HORM (hibernate once, resume many) and Minlogon from the XPe-SP1 and SP2 downloads.

Here's some choice quotes from various hobbyist sites:

From ‘Archaic Binary’ (scroll down the page):

"The EWF filter driver is also working great. I no longer have to shutdown my system, I can just turn off the car and the system will power off instantly, since the data is pretty much 'read-only' on the flash".

From an excellent 'how to guide' for EWF/HORM/Minlogon and how to port it to XP Pro (link originated from the forums in MP3car.com):

"MinLogon, This is an optional component and is not necessary for running XP from a CF card, but it has been shown to improve boot time".

Here’s a few more MP3car.com threads if you're interested in a few of the challenges they're having with the EEFs: Link to a discussion of EWF, link to a discussion of EWF & Minlogon

Now to the whole point of this post.

The point is not that I *just* find it cool that people are using our product in a way we hadn’t intended or targeted. Hobbyists like this are very resourceful and they’re not doing it for money but because it’s a cool hobby. This is the same reason that more geeky teenagers and young adults give for preferring LINUX over Windows:
- because they “can tinker with it”
- because “Microsoft is old and busted, while LINUX is the new hotness”.

I’m referring to hobbyists with interests as varied as a desire for a custom Automotive Navigation system or a personal robot like Jay Beavers’ Cylon project.

The “hobbyist” doesn’t want to be stuck with 500Megs or a gig of features they don’t want nor need for their projects. All those features are perfectly acceptable with probably 99% of the population's PCs, but it’s the remainder of the population - the hobbyists - that may constitute, in my opinion, the future of the computing industry and the future decision makers like CIO/CTOs or IT professionals. These are the folks that are making the purchasing recommendations within their companies.

It’s the hobbyists (and the college students working on their CS degrees) that we need to cultivate and show that there’s an alternative to LINUX if you just want to tinker with the OS and build your custom system that’s still as powerful and respectful as the Professional SKU and still runs your .NET apps or any off the shelf Win32 app/driver.

So why not get the mindshare today by producing a version of the XPe product that targets the “hobbyist”? If we did, perhaps the hobbyist would be able to purchase the entire XPe product (Tools and all) with a license for a single runtime that doesn’t timebomb. Make the price around a hundred bucks which seems reasonable if you’re just tinkering around in your garage.

There’s an academic program for Windows Embedded, is it time for a Windows Embedded Hobbyist program as well? I'm already aware that there's logistical issues with something like this, but surfacing an issue and a potential solution is the first step. <grin>

- Andy

[edit 3/21/05: per comment at mp3car.com, it's '.com', not '.org' <grin>]

Comments

• Anonymous
  March 20, 2005
  Amen!
  I was just thinking earlier today about some avionics I want to build for my experimental aircraft and how XP embedded would be a good fit, but the licensing doesn't make any sense for that kind of approach.
  
  Great idea!
• Anonymous
  March 20, 2005
  The comment has been removed
• Anonymous
  March 20, 2005
  Great point that you put forward Andy.This program you said should not be a learning ground for the hackers.
• Anonymous
  March 21, 2005
  Hey, thanks for recognizing the hard work we do. I'm the EWF/MinLogon/HORM guy. My whole reason for doing it is because 1) I'm a poor college student and don't have the time or money to use XPe, and 2) I got really annoyed at people just firing off and saying "it's not possible" with XP. So with lots of time spent in VMWare and VirtualPC, building and rebuilding XPe images, snooping around the registry and spending too much time on MSDN I finally got EWF working. After that I moved on to MinLogon, and then just for kicks I got SDI working too! I think a hobbyist license for XPe would be a great idea and I hope the big wigs over at MSFT seriously think about it.
  
  Jay: actually, with a Mini-ITX mobo and a small DC-DC PSU I can fit a system into the dash of my '93 300ZX. Others just stick it into the glove compartment or under the seat. With the new Nano-ITX boards you'll be able to have a complete system that will fit any DIN enclosure out there.
• Anonymous
  March 21, 2005
  The comment has been removed
• Anonymous
  March 23, 2005
  The comment has been removed
• Anonymous
  March 29, 2005
  The Windows CE guys have a program/license for hobbyists and something similiar for XPe would be great.
• Anonymous
  March 28, 2009
  The comment has been removed
• Anonymous
  March 30, 2009
  John, We would love to hear more from you why the XPe hobbyist program is needed, for example,

• what project do you plan to use it for?
• how long do you think it'll take for the development? Have you checked our current hobbyist program "SPARK Your Imagination" which offers free CE kit: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/products/spark/default.mspx? Weijuan

• Anonymous
  June 04, 2009
  The comment has been removed

• Anonymous
  June 04, 2009
  P.S.  Although at present, this is just a personal hobby project, if it works well, it may be that I would start building these Jukeboxes for sale and then I would purchase the full XPE license so allowing hobbyists cheap access could open doors to more sales of XPE anyway.

• Anonymous
  October 22, 2009
  Yes, ya, certainly.  The growth of embedded devices makes the platform the new hotness.  Netbooks sales are an indicator that people want a little less than a laptop for lightweight connectivity roles.  Plus, most companies get into a technology that their unofficial innovators endorse.  Can't endorse what you can't afford...

• Anonymous
  March 05, 2010
  This is definately a good idea. I would love to run Win embedded on a currently Linux-running Zonbu (very small pc with CF instead of a harddisk).

• Anonymous
  April 28, 2010
  With the new hardware coming out in Q4 from Intel (their new tech, like Lightpeak and others) now is the time.  We can even make it the new "computer" store, the hardware is here, let's start playing with a larger crowd.